"But imagine what she'll be like in a few years' time!"

[ailbhe]

Today, someone told me I should smack Linnea.

Context: She had just endured a shoe-fitting, including the purchase of a pair of shoes, and wanted to leave the shoe department in the opposite direction to the one I wanted to take. I hel her arm and pulled; she sat down. I picked her up and planted her facing my direction; she turned around and crawled away. I turned her to my direction and pulled her along the floor using her toddler reins, saying "This isn't funny any more," because I had to pretend I wasn't laughing somehow.

An elderly woman said "When my son did that I used to smack him, but you're not allowed to do that any more." I said "Well, I'm hoping to avoid smacking," and assumed that was the end of it. Oh no. She said "But imagine what she'll be like in a few years' time!"

I had no response. I mean, I had a few afterwards - "Yes, she could be the kind of person who tells random strangers to hit people!" and so on - but at the time, I just sort of stood there in shock, then continued dragging Linnea another couple of paces. In total, it took less than ten steps before she got tired of being dragged (initially she thought it was funny), and another two before she decided to stand up and walk where I wanted her to.

Her jacket and padded dungarees were a bit grotty afterwards. Ho hum. Such is toddlerhood.

The shoes, by the way, will have to be returned. A few hours' wear shows that a fitting on the buckle leaves red marks on her ankles. I can't handle this show thing any more. Can't I just cut off her little toe so she fits in normal shoes?

Comments

[pocketnaomi.livejournal.com]

Used to be when Grace did that, I could handle it by picking her up, turning her upside-down, and carrying her out while tickling her. She got to giggle, I got to giggle, and she got out of the store in the direction I wanted her to go. It's harder now -- she's too independent to want to be carried upside-down, even with tickling, and I'm *way* too pregnant to carry her easily. :)

[ailbhe]

Picking her up now gives me abdominal pains unless she cooperates. And that's not hot at 12 weeks pregnant.

[sashajwolf.livejournal.com]

I seem to have mostly blanked out how I dealt with situations like that when my back was too bad to pick ours up. Assuming that it was also too bad to wrestle them into a pushchair, I think probably what I would do would be to let go, walk the way I was intending to go and wait for the child to realise that it would rather be on the undesirable side of the store with Mummy than on the desirable side without, but whether or not that works does depend heavily on the personality of the child.

[ailbhe]

On a bad hands day, when my RSI is playing up, I stick my foot through the loop of the reins. No-one goes anywhere until she decides to cooperate. This would not work if she was the screaming tantrum type, of course, but she's not.

She *is* the "head off to Timbuktoo without Mammy quite happily" type. Though at least I know she won't run into the road most of the time...

[sashajwolf.livejournal.com]

*nod* The foot-through-loop tactic sounds like a good one for you. Mine were the tantrumming type, although not usually in public, but I wouldn't have liked to push it in that way.

"She *is* the "head off to Timbuktoo without Mammy quite happily" type."

[feetnotes.livejournal.com]

claire was, also; martin (her dad) being left to look after her, and being a quite-happy-so-long-as-he-couldn't-hear-actual-cries (of alarm or pain) type, left her to her own devices in the back garden, to which the gate was secured (pretty well), but around which the fence was - just two planks of wood with a gap half-way up, about three foot high, in all.

the first anyone knew about claire's travels was when the dustbin-man rang at the front door, asking whether this li'l lass they'd seen walking determinedly down the semi-main road onto which the house's not-really-a-road ran's pavement "lives here?"...

we could tease her, years later, with having been "the baby the dustbin-men threw back."

[junipertree.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it's a problem I have too. Except now with the second baby I really can't pick my toddler up, particularly if she goes limp on me, as she likes to do. I end up dragging her and I always feel like a horrendous parent when she continues to try to run off.

[megpie71.livejournal.com]

I can't handle this show thing any more. Can't I just cut off her little toe so she fits in normal shoes?

Ah, so there's another kid out there with the pseudo-"problem" of broad feet. Seems like the footwear industries tend to regard the notion of humans being fitted with five toes as something of an insult (certainly most women's shoes give the strong impression of being designed for someone with at most four, preferably three). My mum used to deal with the problem by getting the sort of sandals which were adjustable at both the toe end and the ankle strap (both my brother and myself had broader than normal feet). I don't know whether they're still available these days, but if you can find them, they may just solve the problem for Linnea.

[ailbhe]

Broad toes, narrow heels, and unusually low ankle-bones. Last summer, I fell on sandals with cries of joy. The first pair fit ok, but the next size up when she outgrew the first ones actually made her ankles BLEED. I brought them back to the shop with bloodstains on them. They were very very apologetic.

She almost always ends up wearing boys' ankle boots. Boys shoes are made wider than girls - a boy's G fitting is about a G.5 in girls.

[bopeepsheep.livejournal.com]

Do you have her in Kickers? We bought a pair yesterday and I'm wondering why the hell we stuck with Clarks all this time... wide enough, smart (none of this random orange suede stuck-on crap) and lace-up. Clarks do no lace-up boys shoes this season, we went through the whole catalogue and the assistant even rang a few stores to see if last year's lace-ups might still be lurking anywhere. I'm totally converted to the Kickers cause now. :D

[ailbhe]

Clarks are all too wide at the heel - they are made for a totally different foot shape to Linnea's. But I've not considered Kickers, and in fact know nothing about them. I will ask, tomorrow, when I go to return the StartRite ones we have.

[bopeepsheep.livejournal.com]

We got ours in Russell and Bromley, where the assistant seemed to know much more about the whole range of shoes than the Clarks woman did - and as a bonus was much better with children! I don't know if you go to R&B, but they do Clarks, Start-Rite and Kickers (and some other brands that we didn't look at) so I believed her when she compared the three brands and suggested that Kickers would suit us best. The thing to note is that they can run small lengthwise so it's apparently standard to buy a size larger than measured. He was complaining about all his shoes being tight, and wanting to live in wellies, but the Kickers are not tight (and being lace-up can be adjusted to his individual footshape much more effectively than the two-velcro-strip kind) and TBH we've had a hard job getting him out of them the last two evenings. :) He wore them out of the shop, which I took to be a good sign since he'd preferred to go shoeless in the hated pushchair rather than wear any other shoes. [His feet have not actually gone up a size since he was last fitted, but I think they have got a little wider.]

[ailbhe]

Who or what are Russell and Bromley?

[bopeepsheep.livejournal.com]

http://www.russellandbromley.co.uk A 'good' shoe store, not in the 'Shoe Zone/Express' mould but more like I imagine stores were about 50 years ago! Un-usefully their site is down and so therefore is their store locator. There's one in Oxford and I can't tell from Google whether there's one in Reading or not.

[baratron.livejournal.com]

You haven't been to a Russell & Bromley? *boggled look*

Oh my god! You must! It was the only place I could buy shoes for the first 16 years of my life! (Unfortunately, their adults' selection completely sucks - they only do fashionable shoes, and their adults' fitters aren't trained in the same way as the children's ones).

There's a Russell & Bromley in Kingston, and there certainly used to be one in Guildford - that's the one I used to go to.

[murkee.livejournal.com]

I bought some Clark's shoes once - very comfortable in store - but after some wearing they made MY feet bleed. I'm okay with wearing things in, but it was above and beyond the cause!

They wouldn't take them back as I had worn them (that's how I knew my feet bled!)

Fortunately I had time during the day, so I sat in their store with my socks off and bloody feet exposed. They eventually offered me an exchange.

[radegund.livejournal.com]

Fortunately I had time during the day, so I sat in their store with my socks off and bloody feet exposed. They eventually offered me an exchange.

Hooray! I like it when a story ends happily :-)

[ailbhe]

Rob says that this is exactly what he'd do. He was very pleased to hear about it.

We don't go to the Clarks shop as both the ones we've tried had rotten fitters who had no idea what they were talking about, and anyway their shoes don't fit Linnea. We go to John Lewis when Our Fitter is on duty, and she helps us.

She's the one who gave us the refund and compensation voucher when Linnea's badly-fitted shoes made her feet bleed. She's fitted us every time since, too. We like her. She doesn't mind being kicked to a pulp on the seventh pair of shoes that pinch.

[clanwilliam.livejournal.com]

One day you might find yourself smacking her (although the only circumstance I can think of is as a deterrent for a repeated danger, but you wouldn't let her into those circumstances at a "smacking is the only way to tell her" age anwyay), but for something like that? There are times when I've ached to smack children, but with hindsight (and exposure to Linnea and you two as parents) in fact, the people I ached to smack were the parents who had *not* taught their children how to behave. I appreciate exhaustion, etc, but the sad fact is that a child is a full-time commitment - let something important slide because you're tired and what do you think the child learns?

[tiggsybabes.livejournal.com]

I've never, ever smacked Kate or even felt the urge to do so. I was told that I should have done a couple of weeks ago when she smacked me across the face when I picked her up to put her in the naughty corner after she'd hit Holly. The joys of siblings ...

[ailbhe]

Oh yes, because hitting her is a great way to demonstrate that you shouldn't hit people... I've never understood that one.

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

i think the reasoning is that it communicates directly that it hurts when one gets hit. that at least makes some sense (though i am entirely against the smacking idea).

[ailbhe]

Most kids have figured that out already though. They will even ask if you are when they do it accidentally.

The "so they know it hurts" thing is applied to biting, too, and people say that you must bite the child back when they bite.

But the child already knows it hurts.

[tiggsybabes.livejournal.com]

Yes, I was told to do it so she could see how much it hurt, but it never even crossed my mind to smack her & I don't think you can plan ahead anyway. Kate was pushing Holly around too roughly, so I aske dher nicely not to do it. She stopped, then started again. She was told ina firmer voice to stop or she would go into the hallway (naughty corner) She carried on, so I picked her up (gently, not harshly) & she whcked me very hard & made my lip bleed. I just carried on as I was & carried her to the naughty corner & said she now had 2 people to apologise to after her 3 minutes isolation (1 for each year of her age)

[datagoddess.livejournal.com]

*giggle*

I'd have had a hard time of hiding my laughter at her antics, and the visual I have of you pulling her along is funny.

And, sheesh, she didn't deserved to be smacked for that. She's being stubborn, but you won and she ended up doing what you wanted her to, without her getting smacked. Looks like she lived with consequences to me, down to the dirty pants and coat (although I'd guess she really didn't mind that :-) There's no reason to make her afraid of you.

[flybabydizzy.livejournal.com]

I tried hard not to smack my kids.
(I failed; mainly, I think, because I had 2 very headstrong children and a husband who allowed the kids to do whatever they wanted, until it annoyed him, when everything then became my fault, because I was a useless mother who couldnt make the kids behave.)
Certainly not for something like that. One way I used to cope with awkwardness and tantrums in public was to sing AT the kids. The Terrible Song. ##Oh what a terrible song, sing us another one, just like the other one, sing us another one do!## Just threatening them with the Terrible Song was often sufficient. I found it useful, because a mother who is SINGING to her child can't be bad, can she? Even if she is dragging a screaming child by the reins.

[tassie-gal.livejournal.com]

My mother sympathises with you. She hated buying shoes for me when I was younger. Wide front, narrow back, high arch. I essentially lived in sandals for the first 12 years of my life until I changed schools and had to wear lace ups. Even now if I find a pair of shoes that fit first time (like today) and are what I needed, I buy chocolate to celebrate.

[d-h.livejournal.com]

Well, she'll soon be old enough to lecture - I've never smacked our daughter, but when she has done something wrong I've been entirely willing to clearly state what was wrong and why it was wrong and how it was unacceptable. I suspect that because she has always had consistent clear boundaries, this works well (and she dislikes the idea of being lectured more than many kids mind being smacked).

[ailbhe]

She gets Told Off - "No [verb]ing, dangerous, ow," but other than that she gets physical restraint. And a safe environment.

She's very very good at crossing roads.

[tiggsybabes.livejournal.com]

Silly woman, Linnea was being her age. I was gobsmacked whenI was told that Kate was badly behaved & I needed to bring in Supernanny when she was 2 1/2 & went to her first party & first visit to a playzone type place. She was in 7th heaven with the ball pool & slide & refused to come & sit down for the birthday tea as it wasn't a mealtime & she was having fun where she was, thankyou! I carried her to the table, sat her down & put some food on her plate. She wasn't hungry & none of it was that suitable anyway, as it was adult size hot dogs in buns & junky party food, nothing healthy or nutritious. She didn't want any of it as wasn't hungry & cried when I restrained her from going back to the ball pool. I let her go back & stayed in the area myself & sang happy birthday etc.

I was critisised heavily afterwards, even though it was a first birthday party & all the other children were babies or older cousins of about 6 or so upwards. No other child was in Kate's age group, they were either babies who did what they were told or older children who were very happy to sit down & eat a hot dog.

[micheinnz.livejournal.com]

[sarcasm] But she wasn't telling you to hit _people_, dear, she was telling you to hit your _child_. Children aren't people; didn't you know? [/sarcasm]

Gah. This attitude annoys me no end. Weegirl has never _ever_ been smacked, and look what a right little madam SHE is!

[pogodragon.livejournal.com]

I think cutting off a toe is a little harsh.

Have you considered foot binding for her instead? *innocent look*

[ailbhe]

Yes. When we were getting 5-6 weeks out of a pair of shoes, yes, we thought longingly of footbinding. And the Cinderella approach.

[radegund.livejournal.com]

But imagine what she'll be like in a few years' time!

Yes, because EVERYONE who is not a RAGING DELINQUENT was regularly assaulted by their parents at a young age, and behaviour at 20-and-a-bit months is a good gauge of behaviour in future years.

Oh, wait...

Argh. Stupid people.

[cherade9.livejournal.com]

I have a great deal of sympathy for you. When Adam was a toddler I *did* smack him, mainly through frustration on my part, at not knowing how to manage a small person *without* smacking. My parents and all my family had always smacked us, and my parents did especially with me, because of my having undiagnosed behavioural problems. It's very easy to fall back on the things you recall your own parents doing to you..

Being a disabled single mum, dealing with a child who had learnt to climb bookcases and on to kitchen units at age 2 to get house keys, so he can unlock the door and scarper while I was asleep, thus requiring the local police forces attention to retrive him.. it was a tad hard to deal with. However fitting a security lock to the stairs door, locking us in at night and sleeping on the keys soon stopped that.

Now I'm a little older, Adam is too and I'm no longer a single mum, we as a family don't do smacking. Period. Not for the past 2 years in fact. I took some parenting classes, got a new perspective on his behavior and my reactions to it, and learnt a whole load of new techniques to deal with him. I still feel guilty about the fact I ever did hit him, but now we don't and won't with any other child we have.

Linnea is lucky to have a understanding mum like yourself. I never envied my friends who were pregnant and had a toddler.. it seemed like a lot of added stress, at a time when being the main carer of a toddler is stressful enough. I wish you the serenity of mind to deal with all things and a quick end to any nausea :)

Thinking of you all
Liz

[ailbhe]

It is hard when the only tool in the toolkit is smacking. I was lucky that my instinctive toolkit was well-stocked with other things because my mother is, as has been mentioned before in my journal, the most fabulous mother that ever walked the face of the planet and also brilliant as well. Also, my daughter's personality is incredibly like mine, as mine was like my mother's, so I can usually follow her trains of thought.

And I'm not a single mother, and because I was still largely immobile by the time she learned to crawl, I got safety gates *everywhere* - I knew she was going ot be an explorer like her maternal ancestors. The gate in front of the front door is *very* difficult to open, even for grownups. In a fire I'd have to climb over it to get out.

And the nausea has mostly passed, touch wood, and things are getting easier. :)

[tiggsybabes.livejournal.com]

You & Adam looked happy & relaxed together at CCDE, which I think is a lovely thing to watch :) I glowed with pleasure after a neigbour told me that she liked watching me going past their house with the buggy & my children as we're always laughing & having fun. Apart from PMT days, but we won't go into that! :/

Being pregnant with a toddler is very hard work, though Kate was older than Linnea as she was 2 & 2 weeks when Holly was conceived. It's also wonderful to talk about the baby growing inside you & have big cuddles. Kate called Holly, Tiny Baby, when she was a bump & she still calls her that when she's being affectionate :)