Plan of Action

[ailbhe]

OK, we have a damage limitation plan:

I stop doing things just for Rob's benefit. I stop saying "we slept in" when he slept in and made us late, I stop saying "we forgot to pay..." when he promised he'd do it and forgot, I stop buying his family presents and not mentioning that he had even forgotten the birthday was soon, I stop reminding him to call his parents, I stop doing his laundry, I stop all the little not-quite-lies I tell to make him look good. I used to do it from some kind of loyalty, from wanting to support him in public, that sort of thing.

I stop nodding and smiling when his mother tells me I should make him dress better or cut his hair. I don't defend his poor personal hygiene to her when she criticises it. I respond not with "I'll try to make him," or "It's his decision - he's an adult," because that doesn't have any effect. Instead, I'll say "He wasn't raised to do these things." Because he clearly wasn't. If he had been, he'd be doing them. Are they important? I have no idea. That's not relevant. They certainly didn't stop me marrying him.

I stop deferring to his judgement when I'm pretty sure he's wrong to "save his feelings" or to "avoid undermining him".

And I bet you that in about ten days I'll have stopped resenting him. And that has got to be good.

(Yes, I have discussed all this with Rob already. I don't wash our dirty laundry in public until it's been washed privately.)

(And yes, I know he's depressed - but I have been living with depression for about 10 months now and PTSD for 7 months longer than that. I can't make allowances for his depression; I have to survive my own.)

Comments

[phantom_wolfboy]

I can't make allowances for his depression; I have to survive my own

Yes, exactly. This is all a good start.

[datagoddess.livejournal.com]

Sounds like a good plan. Also sounds like Rob's used to having allowances made for him, which could tie into his depression and feelings of helplessness, somewhat. And his mother shouldn't be telling you what he should do (that was actually my big clue that his mom's probably been part of why he's the way he is).

It's tought stuff, and I'm glad you guys are working through it. *hugs* for both of you.

[nallac.livejournal.com]

For me, one of the worst things someone can do to me is defer to my judgment when they think I am wrong. If I subsequently find out that I was wrong, it sort of feels like they are lying to me. I think this is even worse if they then, without telling me, go and do the right thing.

This doesnot apply if we've argued about it, and they say something like "Ok, we'll try it your way." Then they are being honest about disagreeing.

[ailbhe]

I argued about it until he complained that I always argued with his decisions. Then I didn't argue and he complained that I let him make bad decisions. It's messy.

[nallac.livejournal.com]

It's difficult to find the right point between arguing too much, and sounding like a nag, and not arguing enough, and seeming like you don't care.
I suppose there's also that when you agree with someone, it's not as memorable as the argument when you disagree.

[kightp.livejournal.com]

I think this is a good start, and a way to save your sanity. I also think it may give Rob fits for a while; I'd expect occasional sulking.

But what you're describing are things a parent does for a child, and you already have a child. Depression or no, it's time he grew up. Evidently, his mother didn't want him to.

[the-warwick.livejournal.com]

Jo does some of that for me. She knows I don't expect it.

She doesn't make any bones about my being wrong. She doesn't hesitate to let me know when I'm not pulling my weight.

She still does more for the household than I do. I tend to feel guilty about this and strive to make things as equal as possible. I fail frequently.

We don't have the burden of depression and there have been some tough times. Jo has had it harder than I have.

Keep plugging at it.

[hopeforyou.livejournal.com]

I think this is a very wise course of action, if discussed with care and implemented with understanding.

Assuming responsibility for another person's responsibilities is something one can consent to, but not something that should be assumed to be the default state.

Suffering from depression -- for both of you -- is what makes this a very difficult move for you to change. It is possible for a while that neither of you will be motivated to accomplish certain tasks, and it will take strength to not step in where you grew accustomed to 'covering' for him.

I wish you luck, and wish you sanity. Living with depression and PTSD is not an easy thing to do, and made more difficult by living with a partner who suffers from similar states.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

My wife lives with someone who's chronically depressed, and therefore ends up failing to live up to his part of bargains far, far too often. I swear, my Depression is even harder on her than it is on me.

Anything you can do to keep yourself sane is a good thing. Speaking as someone who's, more or less, in Rob's position.

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

i think those are mostly excellent ideas.

except for what to say to his mother.

Instead, I'll say "He wasn't raised to do these things." Because he clearly wasn't. If he had been, he'd be doing them.

i was raised to do a whole lot of things that i don't do now. some i don't do because i consider them completely unimportant. some i don't do for situational reasons (because i am lazy, or depressed, or because other things are more important and there's not enough time for all). i'd tell his mother that, if she has criticisms of rob, she should talk to rob, because you have not taken on the role of mother, but of spouse -- and that does not translate to middleman. if you want to be more confrontational, that can be said with stronger words. but i see no particular reason to highlight her raising him this way -- he is an adult now and makes his own decisions. and you shouldn't have to smile and bear this sort of stuff, or even to take on the task to "make him" do things. she should stop putting you in that position.

i am strongly in favour of not deferring to people to spare their feelings. sometimes it requires a bit of timing (maybe they're just venting and aren't yet ready to fix the problem), and there is of course always the question of tone when disagreeing with somebody. but sparing feelings if one ends up resenting it is really harmful in the long run, and you're absolutely right in not wanting to do it anymore. it might require some fine-tuning in how to show your disagreement, and some adjustment from rob in how to take it, but keep working on it because it'll make your relationship closer and more stable to learn how to disagree well.

that said -- both the paramour and i are depressed, and have been for years, though the depression shows itself in somewhat different ways in each of us. if we both didn't take the illness into account about each other, we'd no longer be together, and i doubt that either of us would get more done if that were the case; more likely we'd both be even less functional. i believe it helps both of us to keep considering it, to cut each other extra slack, and to communicate with each other with special care.

[sashajwolf.livejournal.com]

i think those are mostly excellent ideas.

except for what to say to his mother.

Yes, I also think all of these are excellent resolutions, except that one. I don't think anyone will be helped by responding to her in a way that seems to blame her. I'd try something like "I think that's up to him" or "I don't think it's my place to tell him what to do".

[ailbhe]

Trouble is, I have 5 years' experience that those responses don't work. Neither does "you should tell Rob, not me," as she just says "But he doesn't listen to me!"

The real reason I want to use "raised" terminology is that she has told me I was badly brought up, which makes me want to maim her. (In her house; I asked Rob what I should do and did it. Grr.) I should probably just get over that.

[sashajwolf.livejournal.com]

Probably best, but I know revenge can be tempting :-( Even if those responses don't work, I think it would probably be best to stick to them and use the broken-record technique, rather than escalate the problem by blaming her.

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

oh. *wry heh*. i see -- man, would i ever be tempted to get her back for that.

though i would probably prefer directness over revenge. i'd try and tell her how that sort of remark made you feel, and whether she'd like it if rob's shortcomings were blamed on her. maybe that would get through to her.

another thing i might try is to warn her that you've put up with this for 5 years, and are stressed out about it, and that if she continues, you will just walk out whenever she attempts to remodel rob vicariously through you. and then do it.

[tiggsybabes.livejournal.com]

"Covering up" as you say doesn't seem to be helping, so trying something else is a good idea. My MIL critises me rather than her son is he looks "pale" or isn't well etc etc & I just want to scream. He's a grown man, is 6 years older than me & can manage his own health. I was feeling kindly towards her for paying for a cleaner for us for 3 months to help out with my PNI, but now I realise it's because Andy has told her that he spends every evening & every weekend cleaning & that he needs a break. Number 1, he's not being truthful as he spends every evening, along with me, doing the evening routine of cooking, washing up, tidying & children to baths & bed. I don't classify that as housework, that's just stuff that needs doing every single day.

[djelibeybi.livejournal.com]

Stopping all that stuff is good.

Starting a healthier, happier life is better. BOTH you and Rob are responsible for your own words and actions.

When G was first struggling with alcoholism, I took on more. He did less. This grew until he was completely dependant upon me. Even to the point of walking/carrying him upstairs to go to bed. I told no-one and defended him, citing work, illness, stress, even the children. People were not fooled. No-one accused me of not caring for him.

The only thing that keeps me from the guilty nightmares is the statement from the Intensive Care specialist: "You never forced him to drink"

I *am* a strong person and so are you. You know what's right, what's important, what's urgent. Sleep deprivation can throw your judgement right off course and make you unreasonable and "un-Ailbhe". Same goes for Rob.

I recommend making lists with each other. Agree what those important things are - Linnea, health, employment, fun. Concentrate on all the things that make them work. Then ignore everything else - especially voices, real or imaginary.

[heraldis.livejournal.com]

Just well done for discussing it. That can be the hardest bit.

and lots of luck.

[rmc28]

It sounds very sensible. I'm glad you're talking through these things with each other. I hope it works.

[pauamma]

Sounds like a plan. :-)

[radegund.livejournal.com]

I like this plan. A lot. There'll probably be a few bumps as you adjust, but in the long run I think it'll be positive. (Watch like a hawk for signs of passive aggression, though, on both sides...)

That said, I have to agree with those above who queried the mother-in-law response tactic. If it were me (and I appreciate that it isn't), I'd probably go for a combination of "I think Rob's fine as he is, actually" *bright smile* and "perhaps you should discuss that with him if you feel it's a problem". Saying "he wasn't raised to do these things" might be deliciously satisfying, but it (a) distances you from Rob and acknowledges that his mother is (essentially) in the right, and (b) leaves you open to a row, as her likely response is surely "oh yes he was!".

[ailbhe]

Oh, and thanks for the idea of 15 minutes only housework in the kitchen in the evening, if that makes sense augh augh, because Rob is suddenly cheerful. And has done as much in 15 minutes as he used to do in an hour.

[porcinea.livejournal.com]

Good.

And I have a bit of practical advice ('cause this just revolutionised our household): hang a whiteboard. I'm checking off daily & weekly tasks on mine, and doing far more than I was. Also feeling better about the work that I do. It might help Rob to manage his own tasks.