It's not cute and it's not funny

[ailbhe]

Why I am not Mrs Robert Collier.

History matters.

Comments

[biascut.livejournal.com]

You think it isn't important. It is clearly important to Ailbhe.

But actually, I meant uninformed on the subject of feminism, and uninformed in believing that anyone here cares what you think about couverture. Can I ask what your purpose in posting here is? What to you see as the goal of this discussion? Do you wish to become more informed, or are you seeking to tell us where we are wrong in caring about such inconsequential matters?

[gmh.livejournal.com]

Hmf. I find myself somewhat impelled to act as advocatus diaboli here.

I meant uninformed on the subject of feminism

While grumpyolddog may not agree with Ailbhe's POV here, it does not make him uninformed on the subject of feminism. Furthermore, although they'd probably reject the term, his mother and sister are considerably more 'feminist' than many who'd wave the term around; there's very little room for girly nonsense when you're running a small farm in the West Country.

and uninformed in believing that anyone here cares what you think about couverture

As are we all. Can you or I or anyone else be truly certain that anyone ultimately gives a toss about what the chattering classes say to each other?

And when did anyone acquire the right to speak for anyone else?

These are my opinions, those are your opinions, those are grumpyolddog's opinions and those are ailbhe's opinions. They may overlap from time to time and place to place; and they may also differ, but they belong to each of us and we all have the right to them.


Can I ask what your purpose in posting here is?

Lessee. He's known Ailbhe in person for over 9 years (as have I). Though I wouldn't agree with everything either of them said, I'd call them both good friends.

As such, it's not an amazing surprise to find him reading Ailbhe's journal; he does it because (oddly enough) he cares enough about her opinions to read them.

It doesn't mean he has to agree; and he's not the sort to shy away from telling someone that he thinks they're wrong.

(It has been remarked that grumpyolddog is to diplomacy what napalm is to garden management.)

The response made a couple of posts ago was a fair enough comment, IMO:

This is an opinion peice in a public forum. If dissent is Not Allowed™ please make that plain

I am somewhat disquieted by the implicitly exclusionary tone of your response to him, and by the conflation of honest dissent with deliberate provocation.

Admittedly, I know both of them in person, and am therefore not simply going on the words written here; and I suspect that it was an honest mistake on your part rather than any deliberate dismissal.

*sigh* - I may personally wish that people might express themselves more carefully on occasions, but God forbid that any of us be pressured into not expressing themselves - whether it is because a woman's opinion is felt not to matter - or because a man's is not.

[biascut.livejournal.com]

OK, I'm going to completely ignore the part about grumpyolddog's mother and sister because it's entirely irrelevant. Dude. If being related to strong women were a substitute for a passing acquaintance with or commitment to feminism, we wouldn't NEED feminism, because there are plenty of strong women around and always have been.

I have asked grumpyolddog what he sees as the purpose of this debate, and I mean it as a genuine question. It's pretty evident to me that this is an issue which is both personal and very important to Ailbhe. As far as I can see, this isn't true for grumpyolddog: if there was any suggestion that he did care deeply about it, I'd have more respect for his opinion. But I think he just wants a "debate", where "debate" means pointless point-scoring, rather than any serious discussion of the topic. Nor do I see him asking why this is important to Ailbhe, or why she feels that history is relevant. Again, if he did, if he evinced a genuine desire to learn or to understand her point of view, I'd have more respect for him.

So what I see is a man stating his own opinion forcefully, and engaging in petty point-scoring, after it has been made clear that his contribution is not welcome. That is the reason I responded to him as I would a troll. I don't see any evidence that grumpyolddog cares deeply about this topic, nor that he really cares why it's important to Ailbhe, and I think it IS trollish to treat a post like this, on an emotive personal matter, as material for cheap point-scoring and showing off how clever he is. And it's also a technique used by men to dismiss feminist arguments for generations.

I hope that clears up where I'm coming from.

(And I'm aware that I'm in danger of doing the same thing myself, so, ailbhe, many apologies if I'm overstepping the boundaries of politeness here and I will shut up after this unless you tell me you don't mind.)

[gmh.livejournal.com]

I'm going to completely ignore the part about 's mother and sister because it's entirely irrelevant. Dude. If being related to strong women were a substitute for a passing acquaintance with feminism, we wouldn't NEED feminism

I'd rather you didn't; because it was something I was hinting at in my previous comment.

What, exactly, do you mean by the term 'feminism'?

Equality of opportunity? Equality of ownership?

I'd say that grumpyolddog grew up in an environment in which these were taken for granted as a result of simple necessity; small farming over the last half-century has been such a tough environment that there is simply no room for anyone who can't pull their weight, whether male or female; I think that comparatively few townies are truly aware of this.

As such, you might as well ask a fish how it felt about the possibility of living in damp surroundings.

I have asked grumpyolddog what he sees as the purpose of this debate, and I mean it as a genuine question.

Firstly, I don't think he saw it as a debate per se; but rather as an opinion stated by a friend that he happened to disagree with.

Secondly, he's out at the moment in London with my wife, so he's probably not going to answer today!

As far as I can see, it isn't a topic in which grumpyolddog has a personal stake

Having seen enough arguments on the subject of feminism between grumpyolddog and various people, I'd say that:

a) it's one that he has devoted some thought and concern to.

b) he has comparatively little patience for what he sees as the more abstract concepts that get invoked when discussing the subject.

(If you're talking equal pay, freedom from abuse, freedom from prejudice; et cetera, then I think you'd find him as supportive as anyone else.)

I don't see him asking why this is important to Ailbhe...

Well, no, but then, her response wasn't exactly looking for a reasoned discussion either, which is probably why his response was somewhat flippant.

(Probably not the best time to be flippant, mind you, but see my previous comments vis-a-vis diplomacy.)

Anyhow, I'm skating on the edge of putting words into peoples' mouths, so I'll stop here.

[biascut.livejournal.com]

This is going to sound like I'm being arsey, but I mean it genuinely and I'm stating it here because I have nothing against you. I'm not continuing with this conversation because I have nothing to gain from it. I'm not interested in grumpyolddog's views of feminism, his disdain for "the more abstract concepts that get invoked", nor the issues on which he is supportive. I've heard it all before, and I highly doubt he's got an original new spin on the matter. (The ways in which women who live and work in rural communities might differ from women who don't is a potentially interesting issue, but there's no point in me discussing that with someone thirdhand when I could discuss it with the women themselves.)

If you do want to know what I mean by feminism, feel free to scan the public posts on my journal. There's a link to a longer post in the comments of the second or third post down, as well.

[ailbhe]

Actually, he knew me in person 9 years ago. He hasn't known me for years now, longer than he ever knew me for - and hasn't *seen* me in almost as long. And it was my 20th birthday party, FWIW.

biascut knows me fair-to-moderately well online and has met me and Linnea in person, if we're talking credentials.

[biascut.livejournal.com]

And Emer! I've met Emer too!

[ailbhe]

Well, you interacted with Linnea. I think you kind of *saw* Emer.

But point taken. You haven't met Rob though.

[biascut.livejournal.com]

Yes, Emer sat on my knee and was generally cheerful and huggy and bonny, but Linnea and I played being on the bus and leaving things behind.

I'd love to see Linnea again and meet Emer (and Rob!) properly, actually. Perhaps we will have to plot a conjunction in '08.

[grumpyolddog.livejournal.com]

A state of affairs which I regret. And you should know I meant no offence.