Am I the only person who reads your flist who had Wonder Woman Underroos? I also had ruffled underwear - in PINK!!! AND I had Barbie dolls - several in fact.
And lo and behold: I grew up and am pretty much OK. A feminist too!
What if Linnea had picked the girls undies over the boys? Would you have been disappointed in her? Why is it any less pendantic to be pleased that she picked the boy ones? What if she ends up going through a pink phase in a year? Will you recoil in horror? What if she ends up geting into glitter and asks to take ballet? What then?
I understand how the Barbie underwear can be upsetting -but I also know from my own experience, that it's maybe not as damning as it's made out to be.
N. Who also wore bikinis as a little girl - starting at 2 as a matter of fact.
She has - but the focus of the toy is on the clothes and *everything* she has apart from that tends to be horrid pink. And then there's the figure... I've worked in the toy industry, and on a 'sindy mobile phone' which was based on a talking barbie. They both said over 1000 completely braindead things. Seriously, this thing said something about having difficulty with homework (Sindy is apparently meant to be 14 now). I did submit an alternate speech matrix to them before it had been recorded, with her saying things which made her sound less stupid, but they rejected it saying it didn't fit with the product vision. I was hardly having her spouting feminist slogans, just changing the line where she whined about the homework being hard to one about getting together to work on a homework project, the line about 'that new TV show' to 'that great documentary', stuff like that. Not only did it make the thing sound less stupid, my speech matrix also managed to be more coherent overall. Thankfully the whole thing was scrapped in the end, and I didn't have to be responsible for something so horrid being on the shelves.
She has - but the focus of the toy is on the clothes and *everything* she has apart from that tends to be horrid pink. And then there's the figure... I've worked in the toy industry, and on a 'sindy mobile phone' which was based on a talking barbie. They both said over 1000 completely braindead things. Seriously, this thing said something about having difficulty with homework (Sindy is apparently meant to be 14 now). I did submit an alternate speech matrix to them before it had been recorded, with her saying things which made her sound less stupid, but they rejected it saying it didn't fit with the product vision. I was hardly having her spouting feminist slogans, just changing the line where she whined about the homework being hard to one about getting together to work on a homework project, the line about 'that new TV show' to 'that great documentary', stuff like that. Not only did it make the thing sound less stupid, my speech matrix also managed to be more coherent overall. Thankfully the whole thing was scrapped in the end, and I didn't have to be responsible for something so horrid being on the shelves.
I disagree with selling bra type underwear for a 3 year old. I have a 5 year old & a 2 year old daughter, who both love Barbie. I have no objection to them playing with dolls or that we paid slightly more for DD1 to have a barbie bike, rather than a non-branded one, but I do object to selling / marketing things that are meant for older girls.
Luckily, me being a reasonably sensible woman, my girls wouldn't want to have underwear like that.
I was tempted to buy DH one of the boob-shaped cakes from Tescos for his birthday, but my 5 year old told me not to be silly as the cake was meant for women who feed their babies, not daddies. She also wants to grow breasts like mine, but again, so that she can feed her babies.
Just so that you know, "Underroos" had both a top and a bottom.
Everyone is welcome to do with their children (apart from abuse) as they like.
I just think that with all the things that there are to get upset about, this one is relatively minor.
When I was a little girl, I definitely wanted breasts. I don't remember if it was because of wanting to feed babies - I knew what they were for - or just because I wanted them because big people had them and I wanted to be a big person with all the freedoms that they appeared to have.
Luckily, me being a reasonably sensible woman, my girls wouldn't want to have underwear like that.
And if one of them came to you and said, "I think these are pretty. Can I have a pair?" I assume the answer would be no? Even if it was a treat, or for her birthday?
I wish I had one of my pics of me in my bikini in childhood. I LOVED them. But I was also a little girl who loved ballet - oh, and building things with my tool set and model rockets. I liked pink, I liked red. I liked jeans and I liked frilly dreses - often at the same time. As an adult, I have gone to some of the best schools on the planet, and am a career professional who is happy in her work. I have little to no debt. I am not a big shopper or very into fashion as an adult. I am an empowered woman in pretty much every sense of the word.
I am a feminist.
I don't think that underwear choice at the age of 3 is going to be the determining factor of a girl's power as a woman.
I disagree with the bra type top as a 3 year old doesn't have breasts.
My 5 year old has bikinis with crop top style tops, but I don't want her to yet wear a more bra shaped top. She just wears the bottoms half the time anyway.
She did surprise me last week. We'd gone out for a picnic & it was sloudy & a bit cold when we left the house. We were all dressed in long sleeved t-shirts & jackets. It came over hot after a couple of hours & it was hard going walking home in our too hot t-shirts. She complained to me & asked if I had a different t-shirt that she could change into & I said just take it off & you'll be fine. She refused as siad she didn't have a vest & didn't want people to see her nipples. I didn't push the issue & assume she's got this from school where they do PE in pants & vests.
My little girls adore both me & their dad. They are happy shopping with me & playing dress up with my shoes & handbags or playing football or doing DIY with daddy. Suits me if the 3 of them are busy together doing DIY as I get some peace & quiet :-P I'm useless at DIY, even when I lived on my own & had no-one to do it, I stil failed miserably & ended up getting my dad over. I hope my daughters don't inherit that trait.
I thought the Underoos had undershirts. (what they call vests in the UK - things you can tuck into your jeans unless you have a long torso)
I agree with you about not taking the frilly-choices too seriously as career-limiting symbols - I think everyone should get to try out drag, including 3yo girls. And 3yo boys, of course. Little girls who grow up believing that "I'm not someone who ..." [wears dresses, wears makeup, etc,] sometimes can find themselves feeling quite awkward and self-conscious when they are 18 or 20 and want to attend a formal dance or a job interview. The teenagers who know it's okay to try on those choices without losing points as an interesting thoughtful feminist are probably farther ahead.
In related news, Linnea likes the Barbie bike. So that's that. I do hope she'll choose to cover some of it in stickers though; the flowers are ok but I hate the look of Barbie's face and the Barbie logo.
Ruffles and Barbie I could live with - the bra is what really gets to me. My daughters are going to be sexual objects for long enough; internalising the message aged 3 seems unnecessary.
And if Linnea had chosen the girls undies I'd have ranted copiously about how unfair it is that liking pink, lilac and strawberries condemns her to a chillier rear end and less reliable elastic. The girls' underwear are of distinctly poorer quality than the boys', which is *infuriating*, but thankfully not a problem this time as she chose red, white, blue and green over pastel versions of the same colours. She has fabulous emerald-green ones on right now.
Ballet would upset me because it can destroy joints and eat lives (my sister and my best friend in particular), but pink wouldn't bother me. She's already in to glitter, though not diamante studs yet. She looked fabulous in a Barbie fairy princess dressing-up costume. I *buy* her pink dresses, sunhats etc from time to time; she looks good in pink.
But she's a little girl, not a sex object, and she pees just as much as boys do, so I don't see why her underwear should be flimsier.
I don't percieve that top as a "bra". I percieve it as a half shirt. Or half "vest" you might call it. Perhaps that is why I am not particularly horrified.
I agree that girls undies should be as well constructed as boys.
Running is just as bad for you as ballet. I've known plenty of bulemics on the cross country team.
Again, agree that they should be equally constructed.
What's a "half shirt" or "half vest"? And what would be its purpose?
This thing has the same dimensions as a woman's crop top or sports bra. It stops under where your breasts would be because it is designed to support them. On a 3 year old, it just stops at an irritating point on their ribs and rides up as their ribs are generally still going outwards at that point and there's nothing to keep it in place. It's designed to look like something an adult woman would wear, which is (a) pointless, and (b) heading towards creating toddler sex objects. A totally ridiculous item of clothing.
Perhaps they're not common in NY but here that's exactly like an item of underwear designed to support adult breasts. They serve no other purpose. I've been familiar with them since I was 13 for that purpose and no other.
My mother wears them, and has done since they became commonplace.
You're free to have a contrary opinion on my journal, as you ought to be aware, but there's no reason for anyone to agree with it unless you argue for it convincingly - particularly when it's based, as this seems to be, on a misunderstanding - I am horrified by three-year-old girls buying (or being given) and wearing bras, an issue you don't even think the garment in question raises because you don't see it as a bra at all.
I compared the fabrics right there in the shops, when I was choosing underwear for Linnea to choose from, and the boys stuff was all less flimsy than the girls stuff. In three shops we visited that day, and one Rob went to alone today.
I think - that is, over the past three years I have gotten the impression - that the gender polarisation of clothes is stricter here in the UK (and in Ireland) than it is in the US; I haven't formed any real impression about Canada.
I wouldn't be surprised to hear that it's getting worser an' worser as time goes on, too - certainly it's worse now than it was when I was a child, and was worse then than when my older sisters were children (a decade earlier).
I haven't seen tap or jazz, but I have seen five-year-olds done up for ballroom or salsa and similar, and it's really pretty scary. Well, not pretty at all, just scary. The look is bad enough on adults.
It's the crop top/bra tops for small girls that I hate. They don't have breasts, so why on earth would they need one? If they want another layer for warmth, wear a vest. A Barbie vest and pants, whilst I probably wouldn't buy them, wouldn't offend me.
I wouldn't buy a two-triangles-topped bikini for a girl of any age either. They move around, you have to worry about them staying in the right place - just useless for a child who wants to be active and doesn't want to be bothered by their clothes.
My youngest has worn boys' pants, but they never seemed as good a fit as the girls' ones. But I don't buy the skimpy ones, she has the up-to-the-waist versions, lol!
The girls pants go up to the waist ok but the fabric is thinner. I can see no reason for this. The same is true of the vests - proper plain full-length vests, not crop-tops.
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(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-08 01:15 am (UTC)And lo and behold: I grew up and am pretty much OK. A feminist too!
What if Linnea had picked the girls undies over the boys? Would you have been disappointed in her? Why is it any less pendantic to be pleased that she picked the boy ones? What if she ends up going through a pink phase in a year? Will you recoil in horror? What if she ends up geting into glitter and asks to take ballet? What then?
I understand how the Barbie underwear can be upsetting -but I also know from my own experience, that it's maybe not as damning as it's made out to be.
N.
Who also wore bikinis as a little girl - starting at 2 as a matter of fact.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-08 01:47 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-08 07:48 am (UTC)I've worked in the toy industry, and on a 'sindy mobile phone' which was based on a talking barbie. They both said over 1000 completely braindead things. Seriously, this thing said something about having difficulty with homework (Sindy is apparently meant to be 14 now). I did submit an alternate speech matrix to them before it had been recorded, with her saying things which made her sound less stupid, but they rejected it saying it didn't fit with the product vision. I was hardly having her spouting feminist slogans, just changing the line where she whined about the homework being hard to one about getting together to work on a homework project, the line about 'that new TV show' to 'that great documentary', stuff like that. Not only did it make the thing sound less stupid, my speech matrix also managed to be more coherent overall. Thankfully the whole thing was scrapped in the end, and I didn't have to be responsible for something so horrid being on the shelves.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-08 07:48 am (UTC)I've worked in the toy industry, and on a 'sindy mobile phone' which was based on a talking barbie. They both said over 1000 completely braindead things. Seriously, this thing said something about having difficulty with homework (Sindy is apparently meant to be 14 now). I did submit an alternate speech matrix to them before it had been recorded, with her saying things which made her sound less stupid, but they rejected it saying it didn't fit with the product vision. I was hardly having her spouting feminist slogans, just changing the line where she whined about the homework being hard to one about getting together to work on a homework project, the line about 'that new TV show' to 'that great documentary', stuff like that. Not only did it make the thing sound less stupid, my speech matrix also managed to be more coherent overall. Thankfully the whole thing was scrapped in the end, and I didn't have to be responsible for something so horrid being on the shelves.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-08 11:09 am (UTC)Luckily, me being a reasonably sensible woman, my girls wouldn't want to have underwear like that.
I was tempted to buy DH one of the boob-shaped cakes from Tescos for his birthday, but my 5 year old told me not to be silly as the cake was meant for women who feed their babies, not daddies. She also wants to grow breasts like mine, but again, so that she can feed her babies.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-08 11:23 am (UTC)Everyone is welcome to do with their children (apart from abuse) as they like.
I just think that with all the things that there are to get upset about, this one is relatively minor.
When I was a little girl, I definitely wanted breasts. I don't remember if it was because of wanting to feed babies - I knew what they were for - or just because I wanted them because big people had them and I wanted to be a big person with all the freedoms that they appeared to have.
Luckily, me being a reasonably sensible woman, my girls wouldn't want to have underwear like that.
And if one of them came to you and said, "I think these are pretty. Can I have a pair?" I assume the answer would be no? Even if it was a treat, or for her birthday?
I wish I had one of my pics of me in my bikini in childhood. I LOVED them. But I was also a little girl who loved ballet - oh, and building things with my tool set and model rockets. I liked pink, I liked red. I liked jeans and I liked frilly dreses - often at the same time. As an adult, I have gone to some of the best schools on the planet, and am a career professional who is happy in her work. I have little to no debt. I am not a big shopper or very into fashion as an adult. I am an empowered woman in pretty much every sense of the word.
I am a feminist.
I don't think that underwear choice at the age of 3 is going to be the determining factor of a girl's power as a woman.
N.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-08 11:57 am (UTC)I disagree with the bra type top as a 3 year old doesn't have breasts.
My 5 year old has bikinis with crop top style tops, but I don't want her to yet wear a more bra shaped top. She just wears the bottoms half the time anyway.
She did surprise me last week. We'd gone out for a picnic & it was sloudy & a bit cold when we left the house. We were all dressed in long sleeved t-shirts & jackets. It came over hot after a couple of hours & it was hard going walking home in our too hot t-shirts. She complained to me & asked if I had a different t-shirt that she could change into & I said just take it off & you'll be fine. She refused as siad she didn't have a vest & didn't want people to see her nipples. I didn't push the issue & assume she's got this from school where they do PE in pants & vests.
My little girls adore both me & their dad. They are happy shopping with me & playing dress up with my shoes & handbags or playing football or doing DIY with daddy. Suits me if the 3 of them are busy together doing DIY as I get some peace & quiet :-P I'm useless at DIY, even when I lived on my own & had no-one to do it, I stil failed miserably & ended up getting my dad over. I hope my daughters don't inherit that trait.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-08 01:43 pm (UTC)I agree with you about not taking the frilly-choices too seriously as career-limiting symbols - I think everyone should get to try out drag, including 3yo girls. And 3yo boys, of course. Little girls who grow up believing that "I'm not someone who ..." [wears dresses, wears makeup, etc,] sometimes can find themselves feeling quite awkward and self-conscious when they are 18 or 20 and want to attend a formal dance or a job interview. The teenagers who know it's okay to try on those choices without losing points as an interesting thoughtful feminist are probably farther ahead.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-08 01:49 pm (UTC)N.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-08 04:29 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-08 12:16 pm (UTC)And if Linnea had chosen the girls undies I'd have ranted copiously about how unfair it is that liking pink, lilac and strawberries condemns her to a chillier rear end and less reliable elastic. The girls' underwear are of distinctly poorer quality than the boys', which is *infuriating*, but thankfully not a problem this time as she chose red, white, blue and green over pastel versions of the same colours. She has fabulous emerald-green ones on right now.
Ballet would upset me because it can destroy joints and eat lives (my sister and my best friend in particular), but pink wouldn't bother me. She's already in to glitter, though not diamante studs yet. She looked fabulous in a Barbie fairy princess dressing-up costume. I *buy* her pink dresses, sunhats etc from time to time; she looks good in pink.
But she's a little girl, not a sex object, and she pees just as much as boys do, so I don't see why her underwear should be flimsier.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-08 01:52 pm (UTC)I agree that girls undies should be as well constructed as boys.
Running is just as bad for you as ballet. I've known plenty of bulemics on the cross country team.
Again, agree that they should be equally constructed.
N.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-08 04:25 pm (UTC)This thing has the same dimensions as a woman's crop top or sports bra. It stops under where your breasts would be because it is designed to support them. On a 3 year old, it just stops at an irritating point on their ribs and rides up as their ribs are generally still going outwards at that point and there's nothing to keep it in place. It's designed to look like something an adult woman would wear, which is (a) pointless, and (b) heading towards creating toddler sex objects. A totally ridiculous item of clothing.
Interesting article - http://feministing.com/archives/005685.html
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-08 04:27 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-08 06:52 pm (UTC)With things that are actually wrong in the world, it's hard for me to get my knickers in a twist over knicers, honestly.
I'm happy to say, "You are right" if it will untwist yours and everyone else's on the thread.
Sorry to have had the nerve to have a contrary opinion on your blog. Next time, I'll keep it to myself.
N.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-08 07:05 pm (UTC)You're free to have a contrary opinion on my journal, as you ought to be aware, but there's no reason for anyone to agree with it unless you argue for it convincingly - particularly when it's based, as this seems to be, on a misunderstanding - I am horrified by three-year-old girls buying (or being given) and wearing bras, an issue you don't even think the garment in question raises because you don't see it as a bra at all.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-08 07:08 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-08 07:53 pm (UTC)I wouldn't be surprised to hear that it's getting worser an' worser as time goes on, too - certainly it's worse now than it was when I was a child, and was worse then than when my older sisters were children (a decade earlier).
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-08 07:56 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-08 12:42 pm (UTC)I wouldn't buy a two-triangles-topped bikini for a girl of any age either. They move around, you have to worry about them staying in the right place - just useless for a child who wants to be active and doesn't want to be bothered by their clothes.
My youngest has worn boys' pants, but they never seemed as good a fit as the girls' ones. But I don't buy the skimpy ones, she has the up-to-the-waist versions, lol!
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-08 04:30 pm (UTC)