Rivka's Meme: Answers

[ailbhe]

From pne: Do you have an opinion on the status of the Irish language? Is it moribund, vital, in between? Is the money being put into sustaining/promoting it well spent, or is it too much, too little, or put into the wrong areas?

(And, out of curiosity, though it has little bearing on being interesting or well-rounded: do you speak Irish? How well? Did you learn it at home or at school?)

From browngirl: if you did want to write about anything having to do with language, that would be interesting indeed.

So there you go.

My information on the Irish language is ten years out of date, really.

It's sort of... ghettoised. There are areas where it's spoken as a primary language, though those are shrinking. There are lots of schools where it's the primary language. But probably most of the population, in spite of learning it in school, is neither fluent nor interested in it.

There are more and more Gaelscoileanna (plural of Gaelscoil, Irish Language School) opening all the time, according to what my family tell me - and a lot of English immigrants to West Cork send their children to Gaelscoileanna for primary level at least. People are still writing poetry in Irish, definitely, but I don't know whether there are any new songs or novels.

I don't know how much money is spent on sustaining it. I don't know, for example, how much more expensive a Gaelscoil is to run than an English language school. I don't know what proportion of the cost the State contributes to schoolchildren's trips to The Gaeltacht, where they lodge with an Irish-speaking family for a week or two and attend Irish College or similarly titled things during the day, and Ceilidhs and things at night, all using Irish as the main language (often the only language, lapsing into English being punishable by expulsion), the idea being that they become fluent through immersion. I have no idea how expensive it is to have bilingual road signage and bus signs and so on.

I don't know how expensive Radio Na Gaeltachta is to run, nor the cost of producing An Nuacht (The News, the evening news in Irish, which used to be on the secondary TV channel but could be anywhere now - there's Teilifis na Gaeilge or something now, too, a whole Irish-language channel which shows dubbed Welsh and Danish soap operas and children's TV).

So I have no idea how much is spent or whether it's effectively spent. But enough people seem to usethe resources - sending their children to schools or lobbying for schools to be started, for example - that some expenditure seems to be justified.

I was fluent in Irish; I went to school from just before I turned 4 to just before I turned 17 (I dropped out, oops) and all the schools I attended were Gaelscoilleanna. But I haven't spoken it much for the last ten years. I can't bring myself to join the local Irish Centre because nationalism frightens me, and I feel strange talking it to my babies when no-one else does. Linnea is beginning to show an interest in other languages now so she has a few words, which she never ever uses, and I have a feeling that more will come up as they grow older - we have books and music and things.

I am really fond of it and I sometimes regret the fact that my children will never have the fluency I used to. I also get great pleasure from things like the huge similarities with Swedish and German - German grammar is similar-feeling and Swedish vocabulary has a lot of words which are basically the same but spelt differently (the words for rabbit, table, good and some others).

And I love the way Irish is spelled - it's so simple and reliable and consistent. Sitting in Reading (redding) Berkshire (bark-shur), consistent phonetic spelling warms the cockles of my heart.

Comments

[hobbitbabe.livejournal.com]

Go raibh maith agat! (That's thank you, in Irish - I hope!)

Thank you for reminding me that I just need to persist with learning the rules and the spelling/pronunciation thing will fall into place.

[ailbhe]

I'm reminded of "Aon focal dhá focal triúr focal eile, and I not knowing no focal at all," etc.

[iuil.livejournal.com]

"Trí focal" not "triúr focal", "triúr" is for people :-)

Richie Kavanagh's from these here parts, though we like to keep that bit quiet!

[ailbhe]

The only time I heard him sing it, he said triúr. I noticed particularly. It has bugged me ever since. Also, he said gaw, not dhá.

[iuil.livejournal.com]

He actually says "aon focal, dhá focal, two focal eile". It's that bloody Carlow accent!

[ailbhe]

I'll tell my mother, but I'm not convinced she'll feel any better about it. She thought the whole thing crude and unnecessary anyway.

[iuil.livejournal.com]

"Crude and unnecessary". That pretty much sums him up alright.

[taimatsu]

I'm very interested in languages and would be interested, perhaps some time in person if you're comfortable with that, things like how Irish sounds and what simple words are. :) (I can reciprocate for languages like French, Japanese, BSL and maybe Romanian, though I am fluent in none of these.)

[kalmn.livejournal.com]

my grandfather was a full blood swede, and he didn't speak swedish to my dad, so my dad now knows how to swear in swedish, and nothing else, and my sister and i don't even know that. and i am sad about that. so, i would encourage you to speak irish to them, and for whatever relatives they have that speak other languages to speak those languages to them.

i know that in places that aren't the us, there isn't the horrible problem where almost everyone is unilingual, but it's so easy to learn languages at your kids' ages, and so so hard once you're an adolescent or older.

okay, off the soapbox with me.

[hobbitbabe.livejournal.com]

This of course makes me wonder how to say mama in Amharic.

[kalmn.livejournal.com]

http://www.zazzle.com/amharic_mama_adoption_mug-168008501871255057

"eh-MY-ay", apparently.

[ailbhe]

Rob's mother spoke Swedish to her baby until she was told not to as it would delay his language development.

Pakistani parents in the UK are sometimes advised to speak English at home to help their child keep up at school. Less and less, but it does still happen.

[kalmn.livejournal.com]

i suspect you know this already, but the people who have said those things don't know what they're talking about. grrr.

[kcobweb.livejournal.com]

Ha. We had a 3-year-old over this morning who speaks Russian with her parents, and she switches effortlessly back and forth, depending on who she's talking to. (At least, it looks effortless to me, and this is a girl who wears her heart on her sleeve and reveals *everything*.) The girls were playing, and A asked "Who will go to the magazine?" and her mother corrected her, "No, magazine is store. Say store." And she did so immediately, and didn't make the mistake again. I have fun listening to her switch in and out of languages.

(She did say, I'm going to teach Elena some Russian. I asked Elena, do you want to learn Russian? Elena said No, and went back to her toy. Hee.)

[ailbhe]

I did very well in school, as did most people in my school, and very few of us spoke Irish at home, and we all spoke it at school. We learned French through Irish, maths through Irish, science through Irish, the whole shebang. Learning through a second language is so not a problem.

[ai731.livejournal.com]

Indeed. This is how I was taught French in primary school - we did science, maths, geography, etc. in French. The only class in English was, well, English.

[perceval.livejournal.com]

That is very reassuring to hear. Both our kids will (hopefully) go to Bun Sgoil Crois na Cise 'san Dun Eideann - DD has already started sgoil araich, and DS is getting the odd exposure here and there in croileagan.

The Scottish census is upon us, and I am toying with the idea of returning DD as "speaks and understands" Gaidhlig (well, she got a certificate at assembly!), and DS as "understands" (ahem)

[sophiedb.livejournal.com]

My mum was told not to speak so much French to me when I was 5 for the same reason. I'd identified the colour brown as "marron" and was therefore lagging behind in English, despite being ahead in reading *head!desk*

So now I speak French to Katelyn when I remember, and my mum does so all the time :)

[sshi.livejournal.com]

The weirdest attitude about Irish that I came across recently was when I was filling out a survey on my experience of language support in the college. You had to indicate what percentage of your students were 'non-nationals with English as a second language', which left me trying to figure out if I should include the student that I had just been talking to, who had Irish as a first language and who had been talking about having translation issues with theoretical concepts in my class. Bloody awful survey design - I'm sure she's not the only one in higher education, not to mention non-native-English-speaking immigrants who have received citizenship. It's a very short-sighted attitude for an education system which is supposed to be encouraging the use of the language...

[ailbhe]

Coo.

I know that when I needed to discuss maths in English I had trouble, because my terminology was in Irish. I was ok in the books which hadn't been translated to Irish yet though - science was one.

[browngirl.livejournal.com]

Thank you for answering my question. I hope to give your answer a closer reading when two of the people in my icon are no longer climbing on me. :)

"i feel strange talking it to my babies when no-one else does"

[feetnotes.livejournal.com]

but that doesn't (& won't) stop you, (i trust); it'd truly be a shame, and it were to: we "lose" sounds that aren't in the language(s) we hear when we're young, and most people can't re-learn them later in life.
being sung to whilst we're little, especially at bed-time, is another gift that cannot be made up for later.

Re: "i feel strange talking it to my babies when no-one else does"

[ellipunk.livejournal.com]

This.
Here is a little song for you to sing at bedtime.. it gets them drowsy and is simple irish:

(to the tune of frere jacques)

Tá mé tuirseach, tá mé tuirseach
ló ló ló... ló ló ló
Rachaidh mé a chodhladh
Rachaidh mé a chodhladh
ló ló ló... ló ló ló

As far as I know, the Gailscoileanna are funded to the same degree (ie very badly) as the English speaking schools. The Coláistí Samhraidh are not funded at all.

Ali switches from German to English with no problems. I find it harder to speak German to the kids the longer we have been living here though. I have to try harder with Ayesha.
TG4 (the TV channel) has a good few of their own programmes, produced and made through Irish. It's not just all dubbing. It is quite good. Until we got Nick Jr we only ever saw Dora, Diego, Wonderpets etc through irish. "Rith Diego Rith" or "rinnmuid é!" spring to mind. :) "Tá ainmhí i dtriblóid!"

I'll stop now. :)

Re: "i feel strange talking it to my babies when no-one else does"

[ailbhe]

Well, since Rob does bedtime and anyway I don't know the tune, that's that!

Though I do sing to them in several languages; that doesn't feel odd in the slightest. And of course the phrases that have been handed down in various languages as baby talk are well-used, too - Rob had to learn those or he couldn't interact with my family.

Dora with Spanish (not all in Spanish, which surprised me) is something Linnea sees on DVD at a particular friend's house. I've never encountered a Wonderpet.

I love the Morbegs, but they come with a side order of Barney ("Only Nana's television has Barney" worked really well until she found a DVD somewhere).

[flybabydizzy.livejournal.com]

I had to learn what should have been my mother tongue as a second language, so I'm not fluent in it, and it HURTS.
I do remember meeting one small child who could swap with reasonable ease between Welsh, French and English - it's easy when they're young. I do encourage anyone who has the opportunity to teach their children as much of their language as they can. It is amazing what sticks. I was singing to a friend's baby; she recognised the tune and song as one her father used to sing to her - his Welsh nursemaid had sung it to him as a child.

[hobbitbabe.livejournal.com]

I didn't write on the main questions thing because I couldn't think of any questions, but now I have lots.

I gather from my readings and from the fact that the various podcasts and teaching CDs say things differently that there are significant differences among Irish dialects. If it is not an inappropriate question, which dialect(s) did you learn?

And in a related question, can you describe to this English speaker how to pronounce your name and Emer's?

[ailbhe]

I was familiar with Leinster, Connaght and Cork Irish, and totally lost in Donegal Irish. I find some accents unpleasant to the ear, which is irritating, because I ought to be above such things, and I have a strong suspicion that the difference between Irish-speaking accents I like and dislike is class-based.

[rmc28]

I was interested to note in my friends Usborne catalogue that they included Irish in the series of "100 first words" books aimed at 2-4 year olds. (Others I think were French, German, Spanish, Welsh)

I am still struggling to learn French beyond "can buy things in shops and restaurants", and my school-learned Italian & German has decayed to that level too, but the French is the priority because of where Charles's grandparents live.

One of the other little boys at Charles's childminder J is half-Russian and his mother speaks almost exclusively to him in Russian. He babbles in both Russian and English, and echoes Charles's English quite a lot (he is about 7 months younger). She speaks English to me and J quite happily, so I conclude it's a deliberate choice.

[ailbhe]

Sadly, when the Usborne people didn't know the word, instead of checking in a dictionary, they guessed. So carrot is listed as "cairéad" instead of "meacán dearg."

[pne.livejournal.com]

Is that unequivocally wrong, or is a regional thing?

I mean, in German you have "Möhre", "Gelbe Rübe", and "Wurzel" for "carrot", as well as "Karotte" (which some say refers to a smaller variant, though), and different areas tend to prefer different words though I think all of them are "correct" in standard German.

So I wonder whether there are regions of Ireland that use "cairéad" and others that use "meacán dearg".

[ailbhe]

Oh, I expect there are *now* - see also veain, vardrús, veigeadóir, etc. But it wasn't in any of the three dialects I was familiar with growing up.

[ailbhe]

I've thought of a better example, too - the Usborne flash-card set has "bread" in English and the Irish word for "loaf". It's a picture of a loaf of bread, but that's not the point...

[hobbitbabe.livejournal.com]

Also there is Cuir Focal Air which is like My First Oxford Book of Words, with 400 words and charming sloppy only-somewhat-sexist illustrations. It also has "cairéad" and doesn't have "meacán dearg". (Is there a parsnip or something that one would call "meacán bán?")

I think "cairéad" sounds like some kind of endearment, anyway.

[ailbhe]

cara, Irish, and cariad, Welsh.

[trizia.livejournal.com]

Children are designed to learn, so I'd say do speak Irish to the girls. Huxley was in a bilingual household until he was 18 (English and Estonian, sadly not Irish as I never learnt it) and never had a problem.

i have the same problem with the Irish Centre here - I'd love to join, my mum is pushing me to join, but ...

[ailbhe]

I think I will continue to use my limited energies for other things, since their Swedish relations will speak Swedish to them and they can speak Irish in Ireland... for me to switch languages the way small children can is very hard work indeed.

[sierra-le-oli.livejournal.com]

Thank you, very interesting post.

[baratron.livejournal.com]

Tell us about Irish spelling! Because to the average English-speaking person, Irish is a language that horribly mangles spelling, and I'm interested to know how it works - without having to go to a website written by a linguist with phonetic symbols that I can't understand.

I've been liking all the posts in this series, by the way.

[pne.livejournal.com]

Ooh yes!

I used to think that Irish was a language with a worse orthography than English, and that it's the way it is because the spelling got fixed a long time ago but the pronunciation kept changing (a bit like English in that respect).

But I've since been told that the spelling actually does quite a good job, considering that Irish has more sounds than English (differentiating broad and slender consonants, for starters) and the fact that there are multiple dialects/accents, which are served better by the existing spelling than if it were simplified (say, 'mh' and 'bh' both replaced by the same letter, since not everyone pronounces them identically). (English is also a bit like this; simplified spelling will only work well for one accent, while others would suffer.)

Hearing how a fluent speaker sees the situation would be interesting.