Rivka's Meme: Answers

[ailbhe]

From glitzfrau: Understanding the UK class system when you immigrate from Ireland. Finding your place in it, and being horrified.

I don't think I do understand it. Parts of it are hard to see. I think there's more of it than the class system in Ireland, but that could be because there's more of it above me - the class system is easiest to see from the bottom anyway.

My place as an Irish person was automatically lower than it was in Ireland. That's changing now as my accent changes; a lot of people can't tell I'm Irish at all and that raises my class status considerably. Also, I was far more employable over here than in Ireland, which improved my economic class no end.

I find aspects of class very confusing. Middle class: I use teapots and cups and saucers and tablecloths and prefer guests not to help wash up if they are only over for dinner, because my internalised idea of Having People Over For Dinner formally includes a lot of the stuff people used to manage with servants (my mother grew up with A Girl Who Did, though we never had that kind of help growing up. I have a cleaning lady once a fortnight, who thinks I'm insane but likes me). Working class: I don't spend money without massive overthinking, and frequently feel poor. Middle class: I assume most people I meet are well-read and fairly intellectual. Working class: I don't go to the kinds of cultural events middle class people often do. Middle class: I argued my cleaning lady into higher pay.

That's not clear either. It's not even accurate.

Where I am now feels very middle class to me. But I no longer really know what the external perception is, which is largely because I'm not looking for paying jobs any more. That really made things clear.

"How do you do, and what do you do?" is a social opening gambit which puts me on the bottom of a social status pile, but I don't know whether that's linked to my personal place in the class system, my family's place, or orthogonal.

Comments

[sshi.livejournal.com]

Ha, yes, this resonates with my experience in London as well - not only were people mostly unable to peg me, but the cues for me were subtly different enough to be off-putting.

The guy who really confused me the most was the ex-punk from the East End who kept professing his class solidarity with me. I was fascinated by his stories of living in squats and having run-ins with 'the pigs' in the 70s, because they were so far outside my experience, but bemused by his insistence that there was no class in Ireland and that we were all downtrodden and oppressed, when I had never felt oppressed by anything in my life (nice parents, university education, sitting in a students union bar talking to other postgrad students).

[pauamma]

who thinks I'm insane but likes me

So do I (except I would probably say "and" or "and so", not "but".)

[kcobweb.livejournal.com]

I'd definitely say that "what do you do" is a commonly asked question at the start of meeting someone in the U.S. too. Unless I meet someone in a clear kid-and-mom space, in which case it's generally assumed that I stay at home.

[ailbhe]

I'm frequently asked it in mom-and-kid space; most mothers seem to have paid employment at least part-time, and a lot have honest to god careers.

I rarely get asked it in home-ed groups though.

[biascut.livejournal.com]

Huh, that's really interesting, because I remember one of the Irish posters in TLL saying that she was always horrified by people saying, "What do you do?" as part of small talk, and I felt very, "But - but - but...!" I wonder how much it is an small country/big country thing?

(Though I'd also never phrase it as "What do you do for a living" as that does assume that whoever I'm talking to is in paid employment.)

[glitzfrau.livejournal.com]

That's really interesting. I do think that in Ireland, questions tend to be more about placing you on a kinship/geographical map. (What school did you go to? Would those be those the Baltimore O'Driscolls? Would you have known my cousin, she would have been there...) Whereas Britain is a more mobile culture, where middle-class people tend to lose their local and family bonds, so profession becomes a more significant marker. Or something.

[ailbhe]

Not sure. It could be the sheer size of the country. Certainly I've met far more people - a far *higher proportion* of people - who've stayed in the same town or county as their parents, even some who've stayed put for several generations, than I did in Dublin, though that's probably partially because that's an endpoint where people from other places go to.

I think it's that kinship bonds are more likely in the larger families and smaller population.

But part of it relates to the way people in offices here felt perfectly able to casually remark on my personal life in a way that didn't happen in the places I worked in Ireland - appearance, hobbies, address, whatever. It's all stuff I'd expect to be part of a more intimate conversation, in Ireland, and I think establishing kinship and shared acquaintance is a step in establishing that potential for intimacy that is just skipped over here.

But I'm making it up as I go along. It's mainly evident to me when my mother meets people, as she's much more shocked (not that anyone can tell at the time) by this stuff than I am.

[glitzfrau.livejournal.com]

though that's probably partially because that's an endpoint where people from other places go to.

Very good point. Culchie socialising terrifies me by its close-knittedness indeed.

I know what you mean about the difference in intimacy levels in the UK, I think. It's funny, because the British have such a reputation for being reserved, and yet like you, I do find them more forward and inclined to comment. I think your interpretation about the ways that intimacy is constructed is bang on. Ireland is a very indirect culture, and I find it refreshingly discreet compared to British brashness, but of course that very indirectness and discreetness is built on layers and layers of kinship and half-acknowledged secrets and unspoken connections.

[radegund.livejournal.com]

Yesyesyes! Also, that bit about Mary finding that being in a same-sex relationship in Dublin was in ways easier than in Britain, because people don't tend to challenge such things outright - which my aunt opines is because there's a major strand in Irish culture to do with knowing people's business - "I have you now" seems to make up for all sorts of social transgression.

[glitzfrau.livejournal.com]

This was really interesting, thanks!

[naath.livejournal.com]

The book "watching the English" is very enlightening on the subject of the English class system. It's all very weird.

I think being a SAHM puts you into a middle class income bracket as a family (without further information as to you income) since maintaining a SAHP is costly for the in-paid-employment partner. Either that or you are living on benefits (that's the other way that people afford to stay home). Owning a house, having a cleaner, not letting your guests wash up are all middle class (although my Mum lets her siblings help with the washing up). Avoiding 'middle class' social events and (dreadful) spending habits could be a sign of 'lower class'-ness or could be a sign of being rather 'above that'; a lot of the 'middle class' stuff can come over as 'trying too hard' anyway.

I've no idea how it works in Ireland.