Slight improvement in shades of green

[ailbhe]

I'm still up my my elbows in mounds of used tissues, but apart from a frightening-even-to-me coughing bout this morning on Linnea's part we are pretty much on the way up out of this particular sludge-green swamp. Both children brushed their hair and teeth today and ate all the meals provided - actual food, not bouillon they felt too feeble to finish - and although they are fairly quiet and inclined to watch telly a bit more than usual, they are not cranky or awkward. I think going out yesterday was a good idea as far as they are concerned but I don't think they're up to going out again tomorrow.

I might even allow Linnea to go to Girls' Brigade. Then I will have even more exciting questions about Jesus to answer. So far we're doing ok with "some people believe," so that's ok, though we had issues with his parents and marriage and things. Thank goodness she has Busy Bodies, a book provided by an Irish government agency which would have been confiscated had I brought it to school aged 10-14 myself.

Linnea's need for solitude is astonishing to me, as is her confidence and outgoing thingywossname in groups of children.

Comments

[sidheag.livejournal.com]

Are you happy with the Jesus-stuff she'd have to promise to be in Girl's Brigade? Looking at
http://www.girlsbrigade.org.uk/html/structure.html
I wouldn't be, personally.

[ailbhe]

Much more so than the Girl Guides promise, anyway. There isn't a Woodcraft Folk or other nonreligious organisation handy.

[heraldis.livejournal.com]

Scouts (or Beaver's in Rs case) have to promise to "Love God"; as IMO how you define god is entirely your own concern, I'm ok with that. The day to day stuff has no religion at all.

[ailbhe]

All but the very youngest Girl Guides promise is to Queen and Country, with no possibility for ambiguity. The Girls' Brigade one doesn't say one will love, honor or follow anything religious, just that one will be loyal to the Church running it and that one will remember (note: it doesn't say act on) the "Law" to seek serve and follow.

[sidheag.livejournal.com]

I'm surprised you see the two organisations as this way round, given that Girls Brigade is explicitly proselytising ("The aim of the Girls’ Brigade is; To help girls to become followers of the Lord Jesus Christ and through self control, reverence and a sense of responsibility to find true enrichment of life.") and Girl Guiding isn't ("Guiding does not subscribe to any particular faith or religion and believes that every member should be encouraged to take an active part in the religion or faith of her family and community." - well, OK, it'd be better without the "and, but still...)

I don't object to serving Queen and country, personally, but I can see some people might. All the God stuff in the Guiding stuff is "my God" though, which is explicitly so that it doesn't have to be Yahweh, and making it ill-defined (i.e. "my God" is not a god) seems easier to me than dealing with the concept of being "loyal" to a church without accepting the things it teaches.

This is quite an interesting article about how guiding has changed.

[ailbhe]

I don't mind the explicit proselytising - people do that all the time for all sorts of reasons, in all sorts of contexts, and at GB it doesn't seem to bother the definitely non-Christian attendees, or the quietly-attending atheists, or whathaveyou, from what I'm told. I do object to children making promises, though, and one imaginary friend is much like another, but there's no ambiguity about promising allegiance to a system of government (including state-sanctioned religion) they can barely understand.

It's certainly a lot easier on me than trying to respectfully explain religious beliefs I really, really don't share but which form the basis of a huge amount of this country's social and cultural underpinnings.

[ailbhe]

Also, I have fairly strong objections to the existence of a monarchy, whereas the existence of lots of different kinds of organised religion (two of which she is regularly exposed to, and others fairly often though not regularly) doesn't bother me hugely at all.

[sidheag.livejournal.com]

No argument, just checking you weren't judging on the basis of mistaken information about the organisations, given that your judgement was obviously very different from mine and I didn't know why. Hope you're not offended.

[ailbhe]

I find the casual acceptance of the existence of a Queen really quite strange, whenever it's drawn to my attention. Whereas I'm quite used to the existence of organised religions which try to get people to think they're a good idea.

[ai731.livejournal.com]

*nod* Taras has recently applied to join the Masons, and a big sticking point for him was the ritual Toast to the Queen at the beginning of the meal-before-the-meeting, and the singing of the Canadian national anthem at the beginning of the meeting itself. He needed to check that it would be acceptable for him to stand respectfully but not speak / sing during those parts. He has similar objections to the existence of a monarchy, as well as to the concept of nations in general.

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, they don't have to promise to do anything regarding God. I'm sure there are some GB companies out there who are far more aggressive about pushing religion, but I've never had any issue with ours. (Same one as Linnea's :) )

The big girls were all discussing various stuff about the occult and so on tonight - mine don't believe in any of that, "not even guardian angels" said Gwenny. "What?" "Well, they're a sort of Christian thing, aren't they?" "No. They're not."

And the captain apparently has a far more figurative interpretation of demonic possession than the evangelicals I grew up with ;-)

Alison

[ailbhe]

They are in for some questions from Linnea next week - like what is this "Christ" and why is she going to serve it dinner?

[the0lady.livejournal.com]

Funny how we can react in diametrically opposed ways to such similar stimuli; I grew up with no queen but plenty of state religion, much as you did, but unlike you I'm indifferent to (at best bemused by) the former but prickly as hell about the latter.

Mind you, for all that I would grit my teeth and dig my nails into my palms in your place, I think it's probably better to not try and actively isolate children from religion. It is objectively something that is out there in the world, and quite apart from the sense of dislocation they may get from not being familiar with it, making it forbidden could be an attraction.

Teaching the virtues of rationalism is probably a more powerful strategy than the evils of religion, right? And you're certainly doing that...

[ailbhe]

I'd object to them swearing allegiance to any nation, mind you, or to any head of state. I just find the heredity thing extra-shite.

[heraldis.livejournal.com]

AH right, I misunderstood the issues :) (Girls can do scouts too btw these days).
I guess I don't mind the queen thing as she definitely exists, whilst I've never seen god driving about in a gold coach so I can wave a flag!

[ailbhe]

Oh, that's interesting - I didn't realise the Beavers Promise was so different. Heh.

I might see if I can find out where the local Beavers are and how much they cost.

[pne.livejournal.com]

I find the casual acceptance of the existence of a Queen really quite strange, whenever it's drawn to my attention.

I wonder: does it make a difference whether it's a "proper" monarchy, as opposed to one where the monarch is mostly a symbolic figurehead?

(Disclaimer: I've never lived in the UK nor spent much time on politics, so I might be mistaken about the actual influence of the monarchy there.)

[micheinnz.livejournal.com]

My atheist daughter is a Girl Guide. We mentally substitute "conscience" for "God".

[micheinnz.livejournal.com]

Interesting.

This is the Guides Promise from New Zealand:

I promise, with the help of my God,
to be true to myself,
to do my best to help my country,
and to live by the Guide Law.

No mention of HMTQ, which makes me immensely happy.

[mrsflips.livejournal.com]

Busy Bodies is fab. Thanks for the link last time. We've found it really helpful. XXX

[ailbhe]

I find it aimed at such an accessible, informative level - I'm amazed by how great it is. It was sent to me by a friend.

[ailbhe]

I think it would be more annoying with an actual ruling hereditary head of state who got a real say, yeah.