Dominion: All Death. All The Time.

[ailbhe]

While Rob and Emer were out at the market today I was having a nice hot bath, pains for the alleviation of, and Linnea came in, face crumpling.

At some point in our conversations about Death, I mentioned that if no-one ever died the world would fill up and we couldn't have any more babies ever. It was one of those throw-out-a-thousand-answers things during an hour's heartbroken sobbing, I don't remember what else I came up with that time. But that one stuck. So Linnea has decided that since the Universe is infinite but we can't just magic the world bigger, the solution is to go to other planets, build biodomes, terraform them, et cetera. So far so sensible (she was quite pleased to learn that people were already building biodomes and learning about terraforming, in a small terrestrial way, so that was nice).

This evening she burst into the bathroom and asked me how many of the planets were close enough to the sun for people to live on. I explained that they were all different distances from the sun, and at this Yet Another Damn Insurmountable Problem in her quest to end entropy, she crumbled completely. So I rapidly explained that a lot of Earth has no-one living in it yet and we might make deserts habitable or something, for practice for Mars, and asked her again why she wanted people to go to other planets.

And so she admitted, for the first time in several tearstained discussions of interplanetary colonisation, that it's so that no-one has to die.

And I explained that people do die, anyway, and that even if we know how to go to other planets, we don't know how to stop people dieing, yet. And that people who went to other planets would want to bring their children, yes, and their pets, yes, and that pets usually died before people did. We talked about how long cats and people live for.

And we were back at the beginning, like so many weeks ago.

I explained a little about what I believe happens when people die - that their bodies have nothing left, that there's no thinking, no mind. She knows all this, of course, and has done for years. I said that a lot of people believe that people's minds go on living without their bodies, that minds need no ears to hear or eyes to see and so we can talk to them or they can see us wherever we are. I said that without bodies people couldn't feel pain, and that nothing bad could happen any more. I said that some people thought that that part of people - the part that isn't their body - goes to Heaven. I said that my Nana, and Rob's Mormor, both thought that that's what would happen when they died.

I wrapped her in my bathtowel even though she was dressed, because she was shivering uncontrollably from head to foot, and I leaned over the side of the bath and I hugged her, a lot.

I talked about how being dead is ok for the dead people, but very sad for the people left behind. We talked about the baby in my tummy, and earthquakes, and how people in rich countries try to help people in poor countries when bad things happen. We talked about the people who died in Haiti's quake, and about the people who lived and what things are like there now. I talked about how she is already one of the people who tries to help people and makes the world a better place, but she didn't really believe me.

Then Rob came home and she went and sat on his lap while Emer got into my bath and Linnea and Rob talked sadly and quietly about space for a long time and I kept Emer busy as long as I could and eventually both children went to bed and I finished reading the seventh Mantlemass novel and got out of the bath and now I'm in bed too.

If only she didn't really understand. If only I believed enough in some coherent structure of God and Heaven to be able to tell her comforting things.

If only it wasn't so harrowing to have her cry so long and so sincerely and so often about something so utterly, utterly unfixable.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

God would be such a comfort to her, if I could make her believe in it. I have offered her the choice, but I can't lie to her: she is my own little piece of godliness on this world and I will not lie to her about something so important.

I need to come up with a coherent summary of my goddish thoughts and let her know what they are.

And meanwhile, it's up to me to wipe away the tears from her eyes.

Comments

[serene]

*sighhhh* You're a good mum.

[ailbhe]

Thank you. Still haven't stopped Death. "He kindly stopped for me." Hm.

[bens_dad]

God would be such a comfort to her, if I could make her believe in it.

Could Nana or Mormor make her believe in God ?

[ailbhe]

Not when neither of her parents do, I think.

[webhill.livejournal.com]

yeah, that sucks.
I have my own death issues. If I think about it (notthinkingaboutitnotthinkingaboutitlalalalalalalala!) I panic. Literally. Shaking, panting, gasping, pull-the-car-over panic. Of course I intellectually understand that everyone dies, that I will die. I cannot think of it. I have tried on more than one occasion to find a way to think about it - alone, with personal assistance from a friend, with assistance from a spiritual leader, with pharmacological assistance of varying types both prescribed and not - but no, it can't be done, it's impossible, I find that as long as I am unable to find a loophole, a way that I can guarantee that regardless of what happens to my body or my perception of reality that my essence, my consciousness, will continue on - well, as long as I fail in that, I must simply not allow myself to think of it at all under any circumstances.

[ailbhe]

If Linnea could narrow it down to having these extreme emotions only about her own death, that would make things a little easier... But only a little, I think.

I do think we'll end up looking for counseling of some sort for this. At least to give her coping strategies, if nothing else.

[pauamma]

IIRC, Jim Baen wrote an essay on death as an evolutionary advantage (published in an issue of Jim Baen's Universe, I think). Maybe there's something in there she could use?

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

Here's what I can, in good conscience, tell a small child about life after death:

The scary part of death is the idea that people just cease to be. But we don't. At the VERY least, we still exist because people remember us. And we still exist because we've done things.

And every single thing we do changes the UNIVERSE. The whole universe is different because of whatever we do. No matter what, the whole universe will ALWAYS contain every single thing we do and we will always exist as that part of the universe.

And that one other thing I know is that "love" is a transitive emotion. You don't just "love" -- you love something or someone. Now, sometimes, you love ABSOLUTELY THE WHOLE UNIVERSE AND EVERYTHING ALL AT ONCE, but that's not the same as just "loving" -- that's loving EVERYTHING.

When we love someone, and that person dies, we still love them. Now, we have to be loving SOMETHING, because you can't just love NOTHING, so, we can tell that, because we still love them, there is clearly SOMETHING that we are loving, and so, we can tell that they're not completely gone. Because, if we can love them, they have to still, somehow, exist.

And that's why it's OKAY that people die, because, when we die, we don't end. Maybe we don't THINK, but we still exist. Because we still affect the universe, and people still love us.

[cangetmad.livejournal.com]

This is more or less what I try to say to my children (and others who ask) though less beautifully): every piece of us, and every idea we're ever had, every hug we've given, lasts in a physical way. When we pass on our thoughts, they alter the person hearing them's brain. That's a physical fact. I'm still singing songs my mother taught me to my children: even though my son never met her and my daughter barely, a pattern she put into my brain is now in theirs.

[trizia.livejournal.com]

That is beautifully written.

[tiggsybabes.livejournal.com]

Kate was happy enough in that I personally believe in reincarnation, as I do, I think we must be given more than 1 lifetime to do things & make a difference.

She does now go to a church youth group & happily believes in Heaven & is very happy that our cat went there a few weeks ago. Her & Holly both talk about what the cat is doing in Heaven most days.

Holly hasn't yet worked out that I'll probably die before her, Kate was heartbroken by this when she worked that one out.

The head & deputy at school are both Christians & the school says daily prayers & sings hymns. I like this, it's certainly not a church school & they learn about lots of different religions & celebrations as part of the national curriculum.

SEAL helps too (Social & Emotional Aspects of Learning) In the loss part, they start off in reception talking about losing a favourite toy & how sad that makes them feel, then move up to a pet or hearing about things in the news & then they move on to a family member dying. They discuss their feelings in groups & how it's ok to be sad & that talking about it helps. I think this is all fab, so much better than all the whispers when one of the boy's mum's died of cancer when I was at primary school.

[snorkel-maiden.livejournal.com]

There is some quote I remember reading in my brief time as a philosophy student about how hellish it would be not to die. I could dig it out if you like? It sounds like she'd be able to get her head around some of it, anyway. FWIW, though, I think you're doing the best that anyone could in a really difficult situation for her and for you.

[biascut.livejournal.com]

I kind of feel like Linnea right now, too. I guess all I have for her is that I've seen that people get very, very sad when they lose someone, but they do keep going. But it's very, very unfair and unright.

[biascut.livejournal.com]

thank you. I am having a bit of a tough week of it this week: I sort of have weeks where it seems sad but reasonable, and weeks where I wake up every day going, "but this can't be true." Obviously, I'm a grown-up and I can rationalise it, but emotionally, I think Linnea's dead right.

[ailbhe]

I think part of my issue is that I think her reaction to all this death stuff is completely logical and reasonable and sane, and the more usual accepting things the way they are is batshit crazy. It's just that quiet acceptance is less harrowing to watch.

My own private response to people dying is to spend a few days desperately trying to go back in time through force of will alone and alter the circumstances which led to their death. This doesn't work.

I do think of you often. Every time I think of my own mum, in fact.

[biascut.livejournal.com]

I think part of my issue is that I think her reaction to all this death stuff is completely logical and reasonable and sane, and the more usual accepting things the way they are is batshit crazy

Do you think maybe that's what she needs to hear? I mean, I wonder whether she thinks there must be some secret that the grown-ups know in order to live with this knowledge, and maybe the fact that everyone knows it and hates it but just sort of ignores it day to day because it's too sad to think about is something she can learn to imitate. But I don't know. It sounds really hard for you both.

[merryhouse.livejournal.com]

hmm... part of my coping strategy for the first few years was to pretend it hadn't happened.

This worked because I lived 200 miles away and had frequently gone for weeks without contact, so I just had to live day-to-day.

Of course, it just made everything so much more horrible again when I visited my dad.

It's hard (even if you are slightly less irrational about it than I was). But it does get easier. Do you want to hear three years?

[ailbhe]

I've read all the Potter but it's much too vivid for Linnea - she doesn't really have an ability to half-imagine things she reads, it's all there in glorious technicolour.

[the-changeling.livejournal.com]

Do you think it might actually be about you? About you dying? So if she saves all the people who die, she gets to save you?

I also wondered if because you believe there is nothing after death... you are going to die and be gone, and she can't stop that? Only by keeping the whole world alive, can she keep you alive, all the time? Daddy will carry on, as he believes in that, but you don't, so you will go completely?

Also, and I hesitate to say this... if we need to die to make room for babies, and you are having a baby... does she think you will have to die to make room for the baby?

Just sorta sprung up off the page at me...

[ailbhe]

No, it's nothing like as narrow as about me. I mean, that's part of it, but she figures it's a long time before she needs to worry about that. There are a lot of other deaths which will happen before mine to worry about first. Well, rail against, rather than worry about.

[ellipunk.livejournal.com]

What about ghosts? Do you believe in ghosts at all, in hauntings? I have had first hand experiences of ghosts and have heard stories of ghosts from others whom I completely trust. Where do ghosts come from if we just cease to exist, to live, when we die? Leaving God and his existence or not out of the equation, do you not think it's possible that the spirit moves into another plane, so to speak?

Personally, I cannot accept the belief that we simply cease to be, when we die. Ali asks a little, from time to time, what it is like where you go when you die and I just tell him that nobody really knows because you can't come back to tell anyone what it's like. We'll just have to wait and see.

[trizia.livejournal.com]

Have you tried the 'we are star-stuff' approach? That we are all made of atoms and when we die those atoms go on to become other, wonderful, things. It helps me, sometimes.