Marvellous much

[ailbhe]

The kids are cheerful and healthy, in spite of being very tired. They have been polite and relatively kind all day. Emer has finally graduated to her birthday present coat - she's grown so that the sleeves are no longer than her arms. I'm pleased about this because it's lovely and long behind so will keep her bum warm.

The children and I all need new passports next year; I've sent off for application forms and now we need to figure out who we can have sign them for us. The relevant website says:

Police Officer (not civilan member of staff)
Member of the Clergy
Medical Doctor
Dentist
Practicing Lawyer
Bank Manager/Assistant Bank Manager
Member of Parliament (MP) or County Councillor
Teacher
Magistrate
Accountant
Notary Public / Commisioner of Oaths

Additionally, we must all go together as they have to sign the photos and witness the signatures of both parents. And also as well they must be available to take a phonecall from the embassy when they phone to check the witness is a real person. And so they can't be on maternity leave.

I think we know a couple of employed accountants.

Comments

[clanwilliam.livejournal.com]

Last time I did it, I stuck my head into the local police station and the desk sergeant was more than happy to do it for me. Might be the easiest way of sorting it out.

[ailbhe]

I had about half a dozen police officers refuse me, last two times I tried.

[rosefox]

You don't have a family doctor or dentist who might be able to do it? That would be my first thought.

[perdita-x.livejournal.com]

must be careful of GPs.. my old one charged £30-40 for counter-signing forms (including passports).

[ailbhe]

Paying for three appointments to get it done would be expensive; there's a system in place for the non-witness signing they do for British passports, which is about twenty pounds per form signed, and the Irish passport requirements are more rigorous.

[rosefox]

Ah, that makes sense. Sorry, brain is fuzzy today.

[biascut.livejournal.com]

It's such a weird list. "Hello, are you an upstanding and respectable member of the middle-classes? You can be relied on to tell the truth!"

You think you spot a rule other than "be a member of the respectable classes!", like "be a member of a professional organisation" or something, and then you spot someone else on the list who doesn't fit that. It's so weird.

[hfnuala.livejournal.com]

I think it's more like 'everyone still lives in a village and is known to the middle class who run the place.' Dev's Ideal Ireland in other words.

ailbhe - we got my bank branch to sign Aisling's paperwork - we gave them a call before hand to warn them and Alex and brought our passports - there is more than one person there who can act as a 'manager' and use the stamp so they were happy to do it provided it wasn't incredibly busy. If your branch is close enough to Rob's work it could be done in a lunch hour?

[pne.livejournal.com]

I think it's more like 'everyone still lives in a village and is known to the middle class who run the place.' Dev's Ideal Ireland in other words.

When I got my British passport renewed here in Germany, the list looked rather similar.

[ailbhe]

That's interesting; here in the UK practically anyone with a degree can do it, and they don't have to actually witness your signature, but can sign the photo and form by post. Oh, and you don't need both parents' consent to get a passport.

Rob has signed several forms for his friends.

[hfnuala.livejournal.com]

You don't need both parents to get a British passport for a kid? That scares me. The Irish rules are to stop one parent getting a passport without the other parent's knowledge, which seems very sensible to me.

[hfnuala.livejournal.com]

The British list is a lot longer, though they are supposed to have known you for 2 years, which is a different wrinkle. However, I know a lot more people who fit the British list than the Irish list.

The other trouble with the Irish list is they phone the signatory to check and if they don't get through to them they make you refill the forms and send a new set of signed photos. In our case this was a real pain as getting photos of a 6 week old kid that follow the rules is a non-trivial endeavour in itself.

I'm not critising the principal of requiring some proof the photos are of the person named, just the implementation.

[ailbhe]

We persuaded them to phone Linnea's witness back, with a little difficulty. But it was possible.

[hilarityallen.livejournal.com]

Er, it's more that most of these people are members of professional bodies. Conniving in fraud would get them removed from the professional body (if caught!), and therefore deprive them of their ability to work in that profession (not to mention making it a damn sight harder to get a job). I think that's the logic behind it. Or that they'd probably be sacked, thus there is an incentive for them to tell the truth. In theory.

[biascut.livejournal.com]

Are assistant bank managers, though? And loads of other people are members of professional or trade organisations who aren't on the list.

[hilarityallen.livejournal.com]

I think the list categories haven't been updated, so that newer professional organisations haven't been 'recognised' for this purpose. I think this is also why bank managers are still on there, though as they'll have accountancy qualifications to get to that stage, they may well be registered professionals.

[hfnuala.livejournal.com]

There are many people who work for banks who hold the status of 'bank manager' and necessary stamps for the purpose of such forms without actually being a bank manager in the sense we tend to understand. That said, anyone who works for a bank probably won't commit fraud lightly as they will lose their job if caught.

[drdoug.livejournal.com]

There's also the feature that there is an established way of confirming such people's existence and identity via their professional registration (or equivalent). Building up a fraudulent professional identity is of course possible but it's not straightforward.

[liadnan]

Happy to assist if that helps.

[ailbhe]

Thank you, we'll bear that in mind. It would certainly give us a cast-iron excuse to get off our collective bottoms and go see you!

[hypatia.livejournal.com]

himself can also sign. I can for UK passports but apparently chartering/fellow-ing doesn't count for Irish passports.

Interestingly it says 'must be member of profession and not retired' but doesn't say 'practicing'. Maybe I can sign :)

I'm also fascinated that in the UK a Christian Science practictioner and holder of an honour is automatically deemed worthy, but a myriad of others are not.

What about Sorcha? At the weekend?

[ailbhe]

I have no idea whether she's qualified - but anyway we don't need it that urgently, and we'll be flying to Ireland on Saturday!

[iuil.livejournal.com]

Not only do they have to be on the list but they have to know you personally or be introduced to you by a mutual aquaintance. Previous photo ID isn't sufficient. That's why AN Random Garda won't do it.

I handed Meadhbh's form to the very newly appointed principal of Sorcha's school and said "Pretend you saw me and Mark sign this". He was slightly bemused by the fact that he could but had the forms in Sorcha's bag at pick-up time later that day :-).

[micheinnz.livejournal.com]

Here are the New Zealand rules:

A witness must not:

Be a relative;
Be your partner; or
Live at the same address as you.

A witness must:

Be aged 16 years or over;
Be the holder of a valid New Zealand passport;
Have known the person applying for the passport for more than 12 months (or since birth for a child under 12 months);
Have a daytime contact telephone number;
Be contactable during normal business hours; and
Be willing to provide the required personal details such as their date of birth and home address.

A witness will:

Fill in the Proof of Identity page in their own handwriting; and
Write the full name of the person applying for the passport on the back of one of the photos, write the date and sign their own name on the back of the same photo.

What if I can't find a witness who holds a valid New Zealand Passport?

If a witness cannot be found who holds a valid New Zealand passport, choose someone from the following groups to act as the witness. They must meet all the other witness criteria mentioned above.
Lawyer
Justice of the Peace
Sworn Police Officer
Applicant's Employer
Minister of Religion
Teacher
Registered Medical Practitioner
Kaumatua [recognised elder of a Maori iwi]

I have been a witness for a couple of passport applications, despite not having been a member of the upstanding and respectable middle classes at the time.