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Current Affairs

OK, I try not to do this because I hate discussing it, but here we go. On Sue Axon's "Right to Know" bid, I said the following in a community earlier today:

I find the thought that my daughter might do this - get pregnant and have an abortion, without telling me - terrifying and upsetting. But if that's what she felt she needed to do to feel safe then that's my own damn fault for not realising something was wrong, and taking her right to feel safe away from her is not the way to solve it.

I'm crying typing this. It's a terrible, terrible thing to contemplate. But she is a person, all 18 months of her, and she has the right to feel safe. It's my job as her mother to give her all the safety I can find. Even from myself.

Even from myself.

This is too upsetting, I can't say any more.

Also, I need to write down all the stuff I have to discuss with the consultant on Monday. And we have no printer. Gah. I am finding it very very hard to think about, also. I would greatly appreciate other people telling me what they remember me wanting to talk about.

And if we could do something to my fear-and-guilt reaction every time the phone rings, that would be good too.

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I agree with you wholeheartedly on the abortion thing. I would hope my child (my son, or daughter if I have one) would feel he could come to me in that situation and feel supported. However if he did not feel safe I would have, in my view, forgone my right to know.

"my own damn fault" as I said.

I hope she will (a) know better than to get pregnant by accident, and (b) know that I made more mistakes than she ever could so she can tell me anything knowing I've been stupider.

Oh, yes, yes, yes. I have three daughters and they're old enough to make really bad mistakes; so far they haven't, and they're still telling me about their less-bad ones. I think I dare hope that I'm doing it right.

A is an important letter, well I is important too...

I found myself incoherent (and probably incandescent) with rage at the radio this morning because of that story, and I still can't find the words to write down a reasoned paragraph on my thoughts. I could just rant but it's not quite what I want to say, somehow.

I basically feel the same way. I want my hypothetical daughter to trust me enough to tell me on her own, but I also want her to still get the care she needs if she doesn't.

I also know that not all parents are going to react in a supportive manner, and I want their daughters to be safe from them.

Yes, you don't want to end up with people having back street abortions because they're afraid to go to a proper doctor.

Exactly. I am pro-choice for this exact reason. While I abhor the idea of abortion, I believe it is better that safe, legal abortion is available than that women who have to make a hard decision are criminalised, and have to risk their lives.

I had an abortion many years ago. I never told my parents because I know their values and beliefs. I have slightly different beliefs. I don't think they would love me any less. I think they would have worked very hard to accept my decision but... I chose not to tell them because I felt it was my personal decision and it was hard enough for me, I didn't wish to "spread the pain around" for lack of a better explanation.

I love my parents and know that they love me and always will but... as the daughter and the mother, know that no matter how you try, they will make their own choices and you can't blame yourself if it disagrees with what you feel they should do. Just my two cents.

i think this is a very very sensible point of view.

*hug*

I find it impossible to imagine not being able to tell my mother such a thing, had it happened to me as a teenager, but I also know women my age who are still made to feel guilty and unhappy by their parents' opinions on sex, let alone abortion.

What scares me is the increased likelihood that pregnant girls will simply not seek medical help, if they're really too afraid to tell their parents and they know that a doctor must. It's rather more serious than a belly-button piercing or late homework.

I am legally and morally responsible for my children until they are adults. I am responsible for their health and well-being among many other things. If they don't go to school, I can be fined (and possibly imprisoned). If they don't eat properly, I can be charged with neglect. If they damage property (and the police do their jobs properly) I am liable. If they are ill and I don't get them appropriate medical care, I can (again) be charged with neglect and probably child-abuse. If they start taking drugs, society will look at me and deem me a "bad mother". If they are unsociable in anyway, it will be deemed (by society, the media and the government) to be my fault.

If my daughter gets pregnant at a young age (which, again, society will deem my fault), I expect she will tell me - we have that sort of relationship. I can think of no better wish for any parent than to hope that they have such a relationship with their own child - no matter how much she winds me up at times.

But, in view of all of the above, I fully support the "Right to Know" case. Society can't have it both ways. Either I am fully responsible for my children until they are adults, and thus with that responsibility comes a right to know everything I deem necessary to do my job as a parent - or I am not responsible for them at all and should be treated like a mushroom. You can't have it both ways.

Exactly my view.

Unsurprisingly, "what she said"

Yes, but if your child thinks (not *your* child maybe, but some child) "Mum would throw me out of the house if I had an abortion and she knew, so I won't tell her" then you would find out that she was pregnant *after* it is too late to get one. I mean, if I were too scared to say 'mum I'm pregnant, I'm getting an abortion' then I'd be too scared to say 'mum I'm pregnant, I'm having the baby' *aswell*. And then you have *zero* ability to do *anything* about the issue because time has made the decision for your daughter.

ALSO

Some parents are wonderfull caring people, this is a Good Thing. A small minority of parents would cause active harm to their child if they became pregnant and the child would, in such a case, clearly be better off seeking an abortion by themselves than telling their parents.

This change to the law will help no-one - if your child loves and trusts you then they will tell *anyway*, if they don't then they will likely be too scared to ask and it is likely that there is a *reason* why the child is scared to tell. It will result in more young girls having babies that they don't want, more young girls being thrown out of their parent's houses for getting pregnant or for wanting to have an abortion... I don't see why it helps *you* (the good parent) OR Them (the bad parents) in any way.

ALSO

I agree with you - society should not make you responsible for your child's actions (thus removing the double standard that currently exists and is pathetic).

Your child is not your property to do with as you like, s/he is a *person*, capable of making zir *own decisions* and *living with the consequences*. People should stop treating children as if they were completely helpless for years and years after the child has ceased to actually *be* helpless.

I agree with you - society should not make you responsible for your child's actions (thus removing the double standard that currently exists and is pathetic).

The problem there is it removes any level of responsibility parents have for their children and pushes further down the road we're already treading very heavily where nothing is anyone's fault, children should have lots and lots of rights but without the balancing responsibilities etc etc etc.

I am happy to be responsible for my children (those of you who know me and the actual family setup know exactly what that means beyond the bare words), as a parent it is my job to ensure that they are fed, clothed, educated, injuries and health issues are dealt with, they are brought up with an idea of what it means to be a member of society and to work within society rather than being self centered and expecting the world to serve them.

It means protecting them from harm, it also means stopping them from harming others (had to do both).

It means being responsible for the life you have brought into the world until it is ready to survive on it's own without making too many mistakes. We learn from our mistakes but there is no value in making serious mistakes with permanent consequences without support at too early an age. That way lies personality changes which will be with you for life.

That is what being a parent means.

It does not mean cutting all the strings and letting the child run free without control just because it's fashionable. Children are people, however they are people who have not reached the legal age where they can function on their own (let's be honest most people don't actually function completely on their own for years after they've hit legal majority).

This is my view, too.

I am legally and morally responsible for all sorts of things that aren't entirely within my control. I can't be thrilled about this, because I like being in control of things that affect me, but I would be even less thrilled about relinquishing all responsibilities completely, or having complete and absolute control over every aspect of my life. In that sense, 'they' very much *can* have it both ways, and do.

Thankyou for this. I'm opposed to this bid, and it's good to hear some parents' points of view. I imagine a situation where a girl is too scared to go to the doctor so ends up having a baby she doesn't want and can't look after. Or asking livejournal communities about natural abortificants and risking her life with herbal teas.

It looks to me like Sue Axon's guilt over her own abortion is what's motivating her here.

So, what do you think would motivate me to do exactly the same in her position? As I said before, I'm pretty sure my daughter would come to me first, but if she did make a mistake and didn't come to me and any medical professional (or social services employee) arranged an abortion for her without my explicit consent I would be making even more of a fuss than Sue Axon is. Trust me on this.

You as a parent do not have the legal right to give or withold consent for a medical procedure for your children anyway - you can make your views known but ultimately the doctors have to do what they feel is right for the patient. It's the same for the next-of-kin of someone in a vegetative state.

You missed a fairly important point there... the words "life-saving/preserving" belong before the words "medical procedure". And I believe that even then doctors/hospitals still need to get a court order to do anything beyond emergency care if the patient or next-of-kin refuse consent.

www.bma.org.uk (I think that's the URL) makes the specific point of informed consent being required as well. The whole site makes pretty interesting reading.

When I was 15 I got pregnant and had an abortion. My widowed mother had to know all about it, and the extended family got to know, and 35 years later I am still ostracised by some, and looked down on by the rest. And yes, I do feel permanently, unforgivably guilty for killing my baby.
I have a teenage daughter who was sexually active before her 16th birthday, despite my best efforts - too much like her mother. I reckon that as I had not done a good enough job bringing her up that she had sex too young, then I had failed her, and therefore would have invalidated any right to know what might have happened (tho it didnt).
The right of the young person to secrecy and safety is greater than the parent's right to know, in my opinion.
If I'm not a good enough mother for her to tell me, I wouldnt be a good enough mother to have a right to know.

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